An Unconvincing Argument Against Evolution and/or Abiogenesis

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It seems the threads which get the most posts and views here are those related to evolution, with some side arguments about abiogenesis. Without wishing to go in depth yet another time, I just want to comment on a particular argument which seems superficially convincing at first, yet is fallacious. It interests me not because I have any particular interest in biology, but because I do have an interest in inductive reasoning, information theory, and the scientific/empirical method in general.

It is urged that it is highly unlikely that molecules would “spontaneously” arrange in the right way to form living material, or that complex structures would form by “random” mutation, or that the “right” combination of mutations (the vast majority of which are known to be deleterious) could occur to result in ever more complex life forms. Superficially, the argument seems meritorious. Counter-arguments involving natural selection are not to the point, because the necessary genetic diversity has to become existent in the first place. It looks like the fitness landscape is such that a hill-climbing mechanism (such as would be the case by single mutations) will not work.

So why is this argument fallacious? It stems from an improper understanding of what is meant by “probability”. I’ll first give an argument by way of analogy and then explain the theoretical basis.

Mr. X is violently attacked and shot. He is wheeled into the emergency room where the doctors find the bullet and remove it. Mr. X survives, as it is found the bullet just narrowly missed several vital organs which would have killed Mr. X had it hit them. In fact the trajectory of the bullet is found to be extremely, extremely unlikely. The angle of the gun, its caliber, etc., had to be just about precisely perfect; any slight deviation in angle or velocity would have killed Mr. X; the likelihood was astronomical, 10^-10, 10^-11, who knows. Mr. X’s relatives term his survival a “miracle”. But is this a real argument for supernatural intervention? Most would intuitively think not. Yet, the initial conditions for Mr. X’s survival were astronomically unlikely. So why do we think that these highly unlikely conditions were in fact the case rather than positing supernatural intervention?

Because in real life, “probability” is synonymous with quantifying our ignorance about something. That’s all it means. Prior to the gunshot, we would expect Mr. X to die, because we had limited knowledge about the initial conditions. After the gunshot, however, we infer the initial conditions were what they were, which we could have measured with the proper instruments. In other words, while P(Right Initial Conditions) is very small, P(Right Initial Conditions|Survival) is 1. Similar arguments apply regarding abiogenesis and mutations. With the right initial conditions or right combination of quantum events, the “right” chemical reactions or “right” mutations would occur. Arguing for the “improbability” of their occurrence is just as fallacious as arguing for the “improbability” of Mr. X’s survival; it’s arguing after the fact.
 
I am a devout Catholic & I believe in evolution. They are so compatible. In a real sense, science is the study of God. It’s really all about listening to creation. In the US we tend to tell creation how it should be without listening to it. And we tend to express our views without compassion when we contemplate science.

Being agnostic is totally logical. And faith is the proof of things unseen. Both are respectable as long as we take care of one another. Care for our fellow human beings is what binds us as good people. For you, this is common sense. For me it is an act of Christian charity. Both are valuable. Keep searching & let us all know what you find.
 
I thought the problem with the origins of life as provided by evolution was the “chemicals + time = life” equation. Until you can simulate life emerging from random or even arranged chemicals, it is another unproven/unverified theory for the origin of life.

The problem with your gunshot analogy is that the angle of the gun, its caliber, etc all had to be precisely aligned and each of those has a probability of occurring based on random deviations. That’s a helluva lot of different equations all matching up perfectly. It is highly unlikely. The other problem here is that I do not expect Mr. X automatically to die. That’s an expectation and probability I don’t have.

That would be okay except no one has even come close to determining the “right” initial conditions for the “right” chemical reactions to occur. It is an assumption that the right combination even exists for life to naturally develop. Therefore, we get right back into probability. It is not arguing after the fact; it is making a logical prediction based on human experience and science(i.e. In this case, science demands that the chemicals->life theory be tested and replicated in a lab over and over for validity).
 
It is urged that it is highly unlikely that molecules would “spontaneously” arrange in the right way to form living material, or that complex structures would form by “random” mutation, or that the “right” combination of mutations (the vast majority of which are known to be deleterious) could occur to result in ever more complex life forms. Superficially, the argument seems meritorious. Counter-arguments involving natural selection are not to the point, because the necessary genetic diversity has to become existent in the first place. It looks like the fitness landscape is such that a hill-climbing mechanism (such as would be the case by single mutations) will not work.

So why is this argument fallacious? It stems from an improper understanding of what is meant by “probability”. I’ll first give an argument by way of analogy and then explain the theoretical basis.

Mr. X is violently attacked and shot. He is wheeled into the emergency room where the doctors find the bullet and remove it. Mr. X survives, as it is found the bullet just narrowly missed several vital organs which would have killed Mr. X had it hit them. In fact the trajectory of the bullet is found to be extremely, extremely unlikely. The angle of the gun, its caliber, etc., had to be just about precisely perfect; any slight deviation in angle or velocity would have killed Mr. X; the likelihood was astronomical, 10^-10, 10^-11, who knows. Mr. X’s relatives term his survival a “miracle”. But is this a real argument for supernatural intervention? Most would intuitively think not. Yet, the initial conditions for Mr. X’s survival were astronomically unlikely. So why do we think that these highly unlikely conditions were in fact the case rather than positing supernatural intervention?

Because in real life, “probability” is synonymous with quantifying our ignorance about something. That’s all it means. Prior to the gunshot, we would expect Mr. X to die, because we had limited knowledge about the initial conditions. After the gunshot, however, we infer the initial conditions were what they were, which we could have measured with the proper instruments.
I think that your general claim is correct. We certainly have no way to measure the probability of life’s spontaneous generation, but we know that life does exist.

However…

Suppose: A man walks on water, in clear sight of thousands of other people. It is obvious that this is not a trick; perhaps it is verified by experts in science, etc. Is this evidence of supernatural intervention?

If you say yes, then it seems like your probability calculus has gone out the window. For how is this different from the above scenario? Something extraordinarily unlikely has happened, but since it has happened, it seems that it must be more possible than we expected – surely science will sufficiently explain it (as if that precluded God’s intervention:rolleyes:).

If you say no, then you are claiming that, if God exists, nevertheless no tangible evidence could ever materialize, such that we could know of His existence. In which case, it’s no wonder you’re an agnostic. 🤷
 
First of all, why the necessity for all these evolution/abiogenesis threads? Education? I don’t think so. The proportion of threads implies something else which is intimately connected to billboards that read: Praise Darwin. Evolve beyond belief, and bus signs: Man created God. Meanwhile, science is brought over here all the time to comment on theology. Science, which is supposedly silent about God and the supernatural. No peered reviewed papers but plenty of direct, and, at times, emotional comments here. Your Bible is wrong, here, here and here. It doesn’t seem to matter. Or conversely, don’t tell me God did it.

Why mention God or the supernatural? Ideally, people would offer their information, and if people ignored it or said, I don’t think this makes no sense to me, I think a civil disagreement would be in order. But no. Just keep posting, day in and day out, waiting for acceptance. And when ‘acceptance’ does not occur, rail against the supernatural? The Bible? Hey, I know there are non-theists and Agnostics who post here. What do you do in the real world when someone you know is not convinced by your argument?

Your example about the gunshot is not relevant. The ability for DNA to gain the correct information in the correct order is astronomical - against. Take the eye:

I need two.
They must be set at the correct distance apart in the skull for binocular vision. Why don’t we have eyes in the back of our heads? It would certainly confer a survival advantage.
The image that goes through the lens is projected upside down on the back of the eyeball, but it is set right side up by our brain.
An optic nerve is required.
It needs to be hooked up to the brain correctly.

Oh, and let’s not forget eyelids. Great for duststorms and sleeping.

And someone is going to sit there and declare an accident had to happen only once? How about a series of accidents that needed to be connected and highly specific? And where did the assembly instructions for the human optical suite come from?

We were all bacteria once. Sure. Uh huh. Organisms smaller than man contain more genetic information.

Irreducible Complexity. Not the declaration that some part was floating around and then happened to connect itself to say, a cell, at the exact right spot, to perform a useful function. What if the part was too short or too long, too thick or too thin? I’m sure you’ve run across minor jobs where the screws you had could not be used because they fell in those categories. And assuming for the moment that such a free floating part could fit and do useful work, there are no instructions in the cell’s DNA to reproduce it. The cell divides and the “new” part gets left behind.

So no. It did not just happen once. In a non-directed development into greater complexity, the theoretical first cell, let’s say, had one page worth of instructions to assemble. Then the more complex things became, many more pages were added, a great many pages. Evolution cannot account for this massive increase in information.

Peace,
Ed
 
I am a devout Catholic & I believe in evolution. They are so compatible. In a real sense, science is the study of God. It’s really all about listening to creation.
You expressed how I feel perfectly. Science without doubt is the study of God. I posted on another thread that schism which exists between some scientists and some religious actors has more to do with vanity. Thank you for your post. I hope this doesn’t get me kicked off the site. LOL!!!
 
Mr. X is violently attacked and shot. He is wheeled into the emergency room where the doctors find the bullet and remove it. Mr. X survives, as it is found the bullet just narrowly missed several vital organs which would have killed Mr. X had it hit them. In fact the trajectory of the bullet is found to be extremely, extremely unlikely. The angle of the gun, its caliber, etc., had to be just about precisely perfect; any slight deviation in angle or velocity would have killed Mr. X; the likelihood was astronomical, 10^-10, 10^-11, who knows.
The first problem, when comparing to evoutionary claims, is how to measure the likelihood that the bullet could follow that path. Why is it claimed to be unlikely? If the bullet was aimed at that path than it was very likely to follow it. So this analogy doesn’t work. The bullet follows physical laws by necessity. It will hit any number of targets, depending on where it is aimed. So, this is a deterministic process and it simply works that way.
Mr. X’s relatives term his survival a “miracle”. But is this a real argument for supernatural intervention? Most would intuitively think not. Yet, the initial conditions for Mr. X’s survival were astronomically unlikely. So why do we think that these highly unlikely conditions were in fact the case rather than positing supernatural intervention?
If however, you increased the level of improbability there would be another problem. How about a man who was shot twice by a professional assassin at point-blank range – and suffered 5 internal wounds from the bullets ricchocheting and returning - barely missing the spinal cord, and the man survives?

Well, when the man himself credits supernatural intervention* and millions of people agree that the situation showed evidence of divine protection – then we have a different situation.

Of course, those who regect the possiblity of miracles and posit a strictly-materialist universe will not accept that.
Similar arguments apply regarding abiogenesis and mutations. With the right initial conditions or right combination of quantum events, the “right” chemical reactions or “right” mutations would occur. Arguing for the “improbability” of their occurrence is just as fallacious as arguing for the “improbability” of Mr. X’s survival; it’s arguing after the fact.
You’re positing the “right combinations” occuring simultaneously. The probability that a series of these right situations actually occur can be determined.

There are plenty of examples that one can use with a deck of cards. That’s how gambling casinos work and make money – they observe the range of probabilty assigned to various combinations.
  • On 13 May 1981, Pope John Paul II was shot at point blank range, as he stood in an open pope mobile in St Peter’s Square. His would-be assassin was a 23 year old Turk, Mehmet Ali Agca. Agca was restrained by a nun in the crowd who prevented his escape.
    Hit in the right hand, abdomen and sacrum, doctors were only able to save the Pope’s life because Agca’s bullets missed his vital organs.
    Agca’s bullet had caused havoc inside the Pope’s abdomen. On making his incision, Crucitti first found ‘blood everywhere,’ six pints of it, which were suctioned out so that the source of the hemorrhaging-the immediately life-threatening problem - could be identified. With the bleeding stanched and transfusions begun, John Paul’s blood pressure and pulse rose, and the surgery could proceed, as Crucitti later put it, ‘more calmly.’ On exploring the Pope’s abdomen, the surgeon found multiple wounds, some due to direct impact, others to the blast effect of the bullet entering the body. The colon had been perforated and there were five wounds in the small intestine. Some five hours of surgery were required to close the colon wounds, remove twenty-two inches of intestine, and perform a temporary colostomy…
John Paul would later say that ‘One hand fired, and another guided the bullet.’ It was a confession of miraculous intervention that the most secular soul might have been tempted to concede. Agca, a professional assassin, had fired at point blank range. Yet the bullet that struck the Pope missed the main abdominal artery by the merest fraction of an inch. Had the artery been struck, John Paul would have bled to death before being transferred from the Pope-mobile to the ambulance. Moreover, the bullet, which might have paralyzed him, missed his spinal column and every major nerve cluster in its potential path. Agca’s shot had evidently deflected off the Pope’s finger, which was broken. On exiting the body, the spent bullet fell to the floor of the Popemobile, from which it was eventually recovered. A second shot grazed John Paul’s elbow before wounding two American pilgrims.
thesacredpage.com/2006/03/soviet-union-behind-shooting-of-john.html
 
Because in real life, “probability” is synonymous with quantifying our ignorance about something. That’s all it means.
EXACTLY!! Hear Hear!! and Amen {snicker} 👍 I have been having to explain that even to mathematicians…sheeesh!
You expressed how I feel perfectly. Science without doubt is the study of God. I posted on another thread that schism which exists between some scientists and some religious actors has more to do with vanity. Thank you for your post. I hope this doesn’t get me kicked off the site. LOL!!!
I have been espousing and trying to get that point across for years. 👍

All of these posts thus far have been phenomenally excellent.

But as to the exact OP concern, as pointed out, why hasn’t Science, with its ability to exactly control an environment, been able to cause life to emerge from a vat? That one question seems very strange because regardless of the conditions of Earth long ago, Science can arrange any conditions it likes, but for some reason espouses that it cannot actually cause life to grow. What’s up with that?

That one fact deserves serious attention. I have to conclude that either politics is hiding something or Science isn’t anywhere close to what Atheist priests claim.

What excuse could there possibly be for Science to not be able to arrange whatever environment they like so as to cause life? Something is wrong with this picture.
 
EXACTLY!! Hear Hear!! and Amen {snicker} I have been having to explain that even to mathematicians…sheeesh!

I have been espousing and trying to get that point across for years. 👍

All of these posts thus far have been phenomenally excellent.

But as to the exact OP concern, as pointed out, why hasn’t Science, with its ability to exactly control and environment, been able to cause life to emerge from a vat? That one question seems very strange because regardless of the conditions of Earth long ago, Science can arrange any conditions it likes, but for some reason espouses that it cannot actually cause life to grow. What’s up with that?

That one fact deserves serious attention. I have to conclude that either politics is hiding something or Science isn’t anywhere close to what Atheist priests claim.

What excuse could there possibly be for Science to not be able to arrange whatever environment they like so as to cause life? Something is wrong with this picture.
Wait, let us not get carried away with our understanding. Faith without works mean nothing (as I paraphrased St. James). BTW, reality has a left of center bent to it.
 
But as to the exact OP concern, as pointed out, why hasn’t Science, with its ability to exactly control an environment, been able to cause life to emerge from a vat? That one question seems very strange because regardless of the conditions of Earth long ago, Science can arrange any conditions it likes, but for some reason espouses that it cannot actually cause life to grow. What’s up with that?

That one fact deserves serious attention. I have to conclude that either politics is hiding something or Science isn’t anywhere close to what Atheist priests claim.

What excuse could there possibly be for Science to not be able to arrange whatever environment they like so as to cause life? Something is wrong with this picture.
Excellent point. A sampling of the materials that comprise the simplest life form could be mixed together with any number of simulated conditions arranged for them.
 
Excellent point. A sampling of the materials that comprise the simplest life form could be mixed together with any number of simulated conditions arranged for them.
Another issue is lefthandedness.
 
I am pretty sure science doesn;t know the exact conditions in which abiogenisis took place. So therefore complaining that science hasn;t recreated life isn;t a valid complaint. Now that;s not to say that science hasn;t tried…but that fact that we haven;t created life yet isn’t reason to say abiogenisis didn;t happen.
 
I am pretty sure science doesn;t know the exact conditions in which abiogenisis took place. So therefore complaining that science hasn;t recreated life isn;t a valid complaint. Now that;s not to say that science hasn;t tried…but that fact that we haven;t created life yet isn’t reason to say abiogenisis didn;t happen.
What is your point, then? What happened? We don’t know. However, people post here as if it’s a given. We simply don’t know. People can certainly try, but so far, no life.

Peace,
Ed
 
I am pretty sure science doesn;t know the exact conditions in which abiogenisis took place. So therefore complaining that science hasn;t recreated life isn;t a valid complaint. Now that;s not to say that science hasn;t tried…but that fact that we haven;t created life yet isn’t reason to say abiogenisis didn;t happen.
Granted, but my point is that they do not have to recreate the exact same scenario. They merely have to create ANY scenario, yet claim that they can’t even do that. Huhh?? :confused:

I would have expected to be complaining that just because they used a particular method, that method was not necessarily what existed long ago. But I didn’t even get to make that complaint because they can’t get anything to work in any environment.

Something is amiss.
 
But even more,

How can anyone claim that Science has anything to do with any claim concerning the evolution or origin of life if it can’t even create a model to begin the formation of a theory as to how life began on Earth?

It seems like someone is proposing a theory of gravity without ever even dropping anything so as to measure it.

How do you propose a theory without even one trial and call it Science???

Actually scientists should be offended by the Secular, Atheistic priesthood.
 
Granted, but my point is that they do not have to recreate the exact same scenario. They merely have to create ANY scenario, yet claim that they can’t even do that. Huhh?? :confused:

I would have expected to be complaining that just because they used a particular method, that method was not necessarily what existed long ago. But I didn’t even get to make that complaint because they can’t get anything to work in any environment.

Something is amiss.
Not really all it means is we donlt know the full process yet. I seriously doubt science has tried every possible scenerio. It’s possible that with our current techology we can;t produce the conditions needed yet. It;s hard to say without even knowing the full picture of what the conditions even were.
 
What is your point, then? What happened? We don’t know. However, people post here as if it’s a given. We simply don’t know. People can certainly try, but so far, no life.

Peace,
Ed
No we donlt know but at the same time the answer isn;t to say we donlt know/understand exactly what happened. Therefore insert your god of choice here must have done it. As it is right now abiogenisis and the various hypothesiss related to it is the best we got.
 
Not really all it means is we donlt know the full process yet. I seriously doubt science has tried every possible scenerio. It’s possible that with our current techology we can;t produce the conditions needed yet. It;s hard to say without even knowing the full picture of what the conditions even were.
Then how can you claim that you have “Scientific” theory?

What would be the difference in saying, “We scientists believe that apples form from the yellow excretions of fairies that fly unseen at at night.”

There is an equal amount of Science in both propositions. Scientists really should be offended by the Secular priesthood trying to steal the name of Science for their cause.
 
Lets be honest, the reason these threads are so popular is so creationists can all share their pseudo science views, pat each other on the back and pretend they actually have some legitimate objection… when they know they don’t, and they are either not capable or not interested in taking the time to actually get a degree and entering the academic arena.

Does anyone on this site have a degree in biology an not accept evolution? 😉
 
I thought the problem with the origins of life as provided by evolution was the “chemicals + time = life” equation.
That’s the alleged problem debunked in the OP. Chemicals + right initial conditions + right quantum events = life.
Until you can simulate life emerging from random or even arranged chemicals, it is another unproven/unverified theory for the origin of life.
Oh, but we can simulate it, using computers. We just can’t physically arrange the chemicals that way in the lab with current technology.
The problem with your gunshot analogy is that the angle of the gun, its caliber, etc all had to be precisely aligned and each of those has a probability of occurring based on random deviations. That’s a helluva lot of different equations all matching up perfectly. It is highly unlikely.
So why is this a problem exactly? That’s exactly the point I was trying to make.
The other problem here is that I do not expect Mr. X automatically to die. That’s an expectation and probability I don’t have.
And why is that a problem?
That would be okay except no one has even come close to determining the “right” initial conditions for the “right” chemical reactions to occur. It is an assumption that the right combination even exists for life to naturally develop. Therefore, we get right back into probability.
No, it’s not an assumption, because the fundamental laws of physics are time-reversible. The reverse of “irreversible” chemical reactions is only statistically, not absolutely, impossible. It is not an absolute impossibility that a chemical reaction resulting in a lower entropy would occur.
It is not arguing after the fact; it is making a logical prediction based on human experience and science(i.e. In this case, science demands that the chemicals->life theory be tested and replicated in a lab over and over for validity).
No, it doesn’t; it can be simulated on a computer.
 
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