An unforgivable sin?

[psteichen]

I was reading Hebrews and came across Heb 6:4-8. As I read it, it seems to say that for one who has come to know the full truth, the sin of apostasy is unforgivable.

Does anyone else have a better interpretation of this section?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

It is in reference to the fact that those who after baptism and commit apostasy, it is impossible for them to be again baptised.

 

[Returnee]

I was reading Hebrews and came across Heb 6:4-8. As I read it, it seems to say that for one who has come to know the full truth, the sin of apostasy is unforgivable.

Does anyone else have a better interpretation of this section?

JMJ has a good answer, but actually so do you. (in a way).

What this passage is teaching is what those who believe in OSAS do not want to accept, namely, that those who fall away from the faith, there remains no sacrifice, no forgiveness. IOW, we are not “saved” at one time, and then PERMANANTLY saved.

What this passage does not say, is that those who fall away have no HOPE of repentance. It says that those who fall away and STAY fallen, there remains “no sacrifice”.

JMJ ties this all together, by saying this passage says there isn’t more than one baptism for the remission of sins. The remission of sins after baptism comes from confession.

That’s the concept here. It absolutely cannot be saying that once you fall away after baptism (if you do) then you cannot come back to repentance, so you don’t have to worry about that. It can’t be saying that, since no one (except baptised infants who tragically die shortly after baptism) after baptism has led a sin free life. IOW if it said such an extreme message, then there’d be no hope for any of us.

And indeed, no reason for the sacrament of confession.

 

[psteichen]

Thanks both of you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I beleive you are correct. The wording is a bit confusing in this chapter. It didn’t help that each traslation words it differently.

 

[DLC]

This passage in Hebrews 6 is not talking about people who were once saved then lost their salvation. This can never happen to a true believer in Christ. John 10:28-29 clearly refutes the idea that one can lose their salvation. Hebrews is written to a Jewish audiance both saved and unsaved. What the author is saying here is that if an unbelieving Jew lookes into the Christian faith and then decides that it is not for him. it is almost impossible for that person to then accept Christ in the future. It refers to a person hardening ones heart so much that nothing can change it and he is lost forever.
It cannot be interpreted to mean that a person can lose their salvation. To make it mean this is to contradict other very clear portions of the Bible that tell us that a believer in Christ can not lose their salvation. Romans 8; John 3:16; 6:47;
1 Cor 6:9-11

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
NASU

Notice the before and after picture. Before salvation a person is unrighteous, a fornicator, idolater, adulteres, effeminate, homosexual, thief, coveteous, drunken, reviler, and a swindler.

After being saved by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ the person is now, washed (cleansed of his sin), sanctified (made Holy), and justified (made righteous). These things are accomplished for by God. Notice the reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Acctualy the whole God-head has a part in the salvation of the believing sinner.

 

[Lance]

This passage in Hebrews 6 is not talking about people who were once saved then lost their salvation. This can never happen to a true believer in Christ. John 10:28-29 clearly refutes the idea that one can lose their salvation. Hebrews is written to a Jewish audiance both saved and unsaved. What the author is saying here is that if an unbelieving Jew lookes into the Christian faith and then decides that it is not for him. it is almost impossible for that person to then accept Christ in the future. It refers to a person hardening ones heart so much that nothing can change it and he is lost forever.
It cannot be interpreted to mean that a person can lose their salvation. To make it mean this is to contradict other very clear portions of the Bible that tell us that a believer in Christ can not lose their salvation. Romans 8; John 3:16; 6:47;
1 Cor 6:9-11

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
NASU

Notice the before and after picture. Before salvation a person is unrighteous, a fornicator, idolater, adulteres, effeminate, homosexual, thief, coveteous, drunken, reviler, and a swindler.

After being saved by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ the person is now, washed (cleansed of his sin), sanctified (made Holy), and justified (made righteous). These things are accomplished for by God. Notice the reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Acctualy the whole God-head has a part in the salvation of the believing sinner.

You seem to be of the ‘once saved, always saved’ persuasion. How do you know that you are saved in the first place? I would bet that many people who believe they are saved, television preachers come to mind, fall away in sin. So if you don’t have confess your sins again and again how are you sure you are saved?

Lets say that I believe I am saved, I have been baptised, repented from all my sins, etc. I go on a business trip, go out and have a few drinks too many and wake up the next morning in bed with a business associate. Am I (1)still saved, (2)I never saved in the first place or (3)I was saved but am now in a state of mortal sin and need to get to a priest and receive the rite of reconciliation in order to be save again. Personally I will pick number 3.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

OSAS again.
If this doctrine is true,
how come the Holy Spirit didn’t cause a single soul to believe in once saved, always saved, for the first 1500 years of Christian history?

 

[DallasCatholic]

This passage in Hebrews 6 is not talking about people who were once saved then lost their salvation. This can never happen to a true believer in Christ. John 10:28-29 clearly refutes the idea that one can lose their salvation. Hebrews is written to a Jewish audiance both saved and unsaved. What the author is saying here is that if an unbelieving Jew lookes into the Christian faith and then decides that it is not for him. it is almost impossible for that person to then accept Christ in the future. It refers to a person hardening ones heart so much that nothing can change it and he is lost forever.
It cannot be interpreted to mean that a person can lose their salvation. To make it mean this is to contradict other very clear portions of the Bible that tell us that a believer in Christ can not lose their salvation. Romans 8; John 3:16; 6:47;
1 Cor 6:9-11

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
NASU

Notice the before and after picture. Before salvation a person is unrighteous, a fornicator, idolater, adulteres, effeminate, homosexual, thief, coveteous, drunken, reviler, and a swindler.

After being saved by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ the person is now, washed (cleansed of his sin), sanctified (made Holy), and justified (made righteous). These things are accomplished for by God. Notice the reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Acctualy the whole God-head has a part in the salvation of the believing sinner.

Wow, you are reading alot into scripture that simply isn’t there. John 3:16 and 6:47 say that he who believes in Jesus will have eternal life. It does NOT say he who believes in me will never sin. The same applies for your 1Corinthians 6: 9-11. Just because you have been sanctified and justified…nowhere does it say that you will never sin. Now, Romans 8 is quite a large chunk to try and go through in one post…I’ll just refer you to verse 26 “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.” Why would the Spirit have to help us in our weakness and intercede for us if we were never going to sin again once we had been saved? Please explain how you feel John 10:28-29 “clearly refutes the idea that one can lose their salvation.” I do not see that in this passage. Maybe that’s because I do not equate “…no one will snatch them out of my hand.” with “never sinning”. My understanding is that even though we sin we are still in the hand of God and that is why repentance and forgiveness are still possible. So, I do not see anywhere in your scripture references anything that supports your “once saved always saved” hypthesis.

 

[Church_Militant]

This passage in Hebrews 6 is not talking about people who were once saved then lost their salvation. This can never happen to a true believer in Christ. John 10:28-29 clearly refutes the idea that one can lose their salvation. …

According to your new wind of doctrine, which is neither supported by the Word of God nor the historical teachings of the Christian church. Not even all non-Catholics believe this error. (Thanks Be To God!)

…
1 Cor 6:9-11

After being saved by God’s grace through faith alone

(Notice here that DLC states his pet doctrines of Sola Fide and OSAS as if we should accept them as God-given fact when in fact they are not. If you fail to challenge him here then you concede him validity of argument that his argument does not merit.)

in Christ the person is now, washed (cleansed of his sin),

In Baptism. Look at what the Word of God really says.
Exodus 36:25 (Foretold), Matthew 28:18 Make disciples and do what? Mark 16:16 Believes and is what will be saved? Acts 2:38 and 22:16 (Very clear!) 1st Corinthians 6:11, Galatians 3:27, Titus 3:5, and 1st Peter 3:21.

sanctified (made Holy),

How?
2nd Timothy 2:19 But the sure foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal: the Lord knoweth who are his; and let every one depart from iniquity who nameth the name of the Lord. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and earth: and some indeed unto honour, but some unto dishonour. 21 If any man therefore shall cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and profitable to the Lord, prepared unto every good work

and justified (made righteous).

What does the Word of God actually says about this? (BTW, This is the passage that really does deal with the unforgivable sin. Read the context to get a full understanding.)
Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known. 34 O generation of vipers, how can you speak good things, whereas you are evil? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of a good treasure bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of an evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. and also James 2:20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

These things are accomplished for by God.

Well we can agree on one thing.

Notice the reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Acctualy the whole God-head has a part in the salvation of the believing sinner.

I think we Catholics knew that…

psteichen, You have received some very good and correct counsel concerning this passage, but if you look at what it says, you’ll see that it’s not just the apostasy that seals their eternal fate.

They have no invincible ignorance and if they persist to the end…they’re toast.
Pax tecum,

 

[guanophore]

This passage in Hebrews 6 is not talking about people who were once saved then lost their salvation. This can never happen to a true believer in Christ. John 10:28-29 clearly refutes the idea that one can lose their salvation.

Ah, but what do true believers do? They are obedient! One who disobeys can certainly “jump out” of HIs hand!

Hebrews is written to a Jewish audiance both saved and unsaved. What the author is saying here is that if an unbelieving Jew lookes into the Christian faith and then decides that it is not for him. it is almost impossible for that person to then accept Christ in the future. It refers to a person hardening ones heart so much that nothing can change it and he is lost forever.

I think your interpretation is a bit off the mark. Saul of Tarsus looked into the Christian faith, and rejected it. However, that is not the point here. Hebrews 6 is speaking about the one who has “once been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gift”. That is not somene just poking around! That is someone who has encountered Christ! Or to what do you think such a one has been enlighted? what was tasted?

It cannot be interpreted to mean that a person can lose their salvation. To make it mean this is to contradict other very clear portions of the Bible that tell us that a believer in Christ can not lose their salvation. Romans 8; John 3:16; 6:47;
1 Cor 6:9-11

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Notice the before and after picture. Before salvation a person is unrighteous, a fornicator, idolater, adulteres, effeminate, homosexual, thief, coveteous, drunken, reviler, and a swindler.

After being saved by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ the person is now, washed (cleansed of his sin), sanctified (made Holy), and justified (made righteous). These things are accomplished for by God. Notice the reference to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Acctualy the whole God-head has a part in the salvation of the believing sinner.

No, a person cannot 'lose" their salvation,but they can sure throw it away! This verse just confirms what I was saying about Heb. 6. it was addressed to baptized persons, who would crucify the son of God afresh, if they threw away the grace of their baptism.

 

[guanophore]

You seem to be of the ‘once saved, always saved’ persuasion. How do you know that you are saved in the first place? I would bet that many people who believe they are saved, television preachers come to mind, fall away in sin. So if you don’t have confess your sins again and again how are you sure you are saved?

Lets say that I believe I am saved, I have been baptised, repented from all my sins, etc. I go on a business trip, go out and have a few drinks too many and wake up the next morning in bed with a business associate. Am I (1)still saved, (2)I never saved in the first place or (3)I was saved but am now in a state of mortal sin and need to get to a priest and receive the rite of reconciliation in order to be save again. Personally I will pick number 3.

I wonder if baptism has anything to do with salvation?

 

[spauline]

Actually, no body fully nailed this verse. What you are seeing here in Hebrews 6 is an example of what’s called HYPERBOLE: great exageration to get a point across. Hence, just as Christ says, “cut off your hand” if it causes you to sin, it’s just exagerating. If it needed to come to this, yes, but we don’t take it literally.

Similarly, the author of Hebrews is here stating that, IN GENERAL (i…e, in MOST cases), but not ABSOLUTELY, once a person experiences in this life the fullness of the fruits of Christ’s Redemption, including repentance and baptism and a life of grace, if they fall away (not just mortal sin, but APOSTASY), that is, the total refutation of the Catholic faith, it will be PRACTICALLY impossible for the person to be restored to faith.

I also personally argue a historical fulfillment of this verse: once humanity experiences the fullness of the fruits of Christ’s Redemption WITHIN human history, in and through the fullness of the Gentiles, when they fall away in the great apostasy after that, it will be PRACTICALLY impossible for them to be restored to faith, and that is why God will end the world then.

 

[guanophore]

I was reading Hebrews and came across Heb 6:4-8. As I read it, it seems to say that for one who has come to know the full truth, the sin of apostasy is unforgivable.

Does anyone else have a better interpretation of this section?

This verse must also be read along with Luke 12:9-10
“And every one who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Since the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of of sin in order that we can come to repentance, if a person rejects the ministry of the HS he cannot be restored to repentance. We are unable to be restored to a state of grace with God on our own, and if we reject the manner by where it can happen, we will be lost.

However, anyone, at any point who repents of sin and wants to be reconciled with God can do so. An example is the thief who was crucified next to him who was sincerely sorry for his sins, and recognized that he deserved punishment.

 

[Sixtus]

My daughter turned her back on the faith in which she was broght up, ignored the teachings and even ate meat on Good Friday.

She came back in the spirit of the prodigical son. She did it on her own, there was no (name removed by moderator)ut from me. It was something miraculous between her and the Holy Spirit.

I have never asked. I do not feel it is my right to prey. It is something very personal to her.

Today she participates in teaching catechetics. What can I say a poor sinner that I am? I stand in awe and am covered by the huge shadow of her spirituality which dwarfs my spirituality and I never fell away.

Never say NEVER! That is not for us to judge. You do not know what God is doing in peoples lives

 

[Sixtus]

My daughter turned her back on the faith in which she was broght up, ignored the teachings and even ate meat on Ash Wednesdays and Good Fridays.

She came back in the spirit of the prodigical son. She did it on her own, there was no (name removed by moderator)ut from me. It was something miraculous between her and the Holy Spirit.

I have never asked. I do not feel it is my right to prey. It is something very personal to her.

Today she participates in teaching catechetics. What can I say a poor sinner that I am? I stand in awe and am covered by the huge shadow of her spirituality which dwarfs my spirituality.

Never say NEVER! That is not for us to judge. You do not know what God is doing in peoples lives

 

[Sixtus]

My daughter turned her back on the faith in which she was brought up, ignored the teachings and even ate meat on Ash Wednesdays and Good Fridays and was as far away from the faith as it was imaginably possible to get.

She came back in the spirit of the prodigical son. She did it on her own, there was no (name removed by moderator)ut from me. It was something miraculous between her and the Holy Spirit.

I have never asked. I do not feel it is my right to prey. It is something very personal to her.

Today she participates in teaching catechetics. What can I say a poor sinner that I am? I stand in awe and am covered by the huge shadow of her spirituality which dwarfs my spirituality.

Never say NEVER! That is not for us to judge.

 

[Lance]

I wonder if baptism has anything to do with salvation?

Everything the Catholic Church does has to do with salvation.

 

[DLC]

Nope, water baptism is not salvic. John 3:16 tells us that when one believes in Christ as his personal Savior, he has eternal life and will not perish. Notice the clear absence of water baptism here. Continue reading to verse 17-19 and you see the Jesus tells us that if one believes in Him for salvation he is saved and if he does not believe he is not saved. Salvation is very simple. Why do we confuse the issue with a lot of man made regulations that we must follow.

 

[Montgomeryatty]

DLC,

I agree! John 3:16 says not one word about water baptism. The problem is that many many other verses say something very explicit about water baptism. You cannot discount those verses on the basis of a single verse. Unless you’re creating your own man-made regulation that John 3:16 is somehow an “archverse,” more important than any other one. Also, some verses speak of the necessity of confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. This isn’t in John 3:16, so I suppose that an oral confession a la the sinner’s prayer is therefore unnecessary? If John 3:16 is the benchmark, all you must do is come to an intellectual acceptance of the factual proposition that Jesus was the son of God and died and was resurrected to atone for our sins. A sinner’s-prayer-like petition to Jesus to forgive you of your sins, to come into your heart, to be your Lord and Savior, etc., is unnecessary, correct?

 

[guanophore]

Nope, water baptism is not salvic. John 3:16 tells us that when one believes in Christ as his personal Savior, he has eternal life and will not perish. Notice the clear absence of water baptism here. Continue reading to verse 17-19 and you see the Jesus tells us that if one believes in Him for salvation he is saved and if he does not believe he is not saved. Salvation is very simple. Why do we confuse the issue with a lot of man made regulations that we must follow.

You are ignoring all the other scriptures about Baptism? They must be taken together with the whole of scriptural teaching on baptism.

John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized

John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” John 4:1 - baptism naturally flows from Jesus’ baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, Jesus and his disciples went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus’ teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

Acts 8:36 – the eunuch believes, then asds for baptism.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” Baptism follows faith.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “**arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” **

Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Heb. 10:22 – “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic.

John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” Paul’s submission to baptism proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

1 Peter 3:21
1 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,

This is not man made, this is Jesus made!