An unfortuate Mass experience

[mm3861]

After reading the initial posting and all of the responses, I am ashamed to be Catholic. If being Catholic means judging everyone and finding that we are better, holier and the only good ones while having no love and compassion for anyone else, then the Catholic Church is worse than the approach that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees that he saw. I really think more and more that the Church in what I read here is abandoning Jesus Christ all together as well as the Holy Spirit for the sake of just being better and superior beings. That is exactly the opposite of the readings of this great feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross today. I do not know when it became more important to be right and better than everybody else rather than follow the two great commandments of Jesus but I hope that the Catholic Church returns to Jesus some day and what he preached because from what I read here, Jesus is not even thought of at all. Jesus healed those in need of healing on the Sabbath when he was scolded. He was present to the poor and oppressed in their need. He was scolded in the same way you are scolding. I would prefer to be on the side of Jesus and not finding fault with those who are doing his work but with trying to bring people together in love as he asked of us so that we can all be saved. I see why the Catholic Church is shrinking more all of the time and why people complain about the Church being hypocritical…I pray for all of the people who prefer the way of the pharisees that I see here that some day you experience the change of heart which helps you to follow the Beatitudes, the golden rule and the two great commandements. I know that it is very difficult to follow them. The ways of the world of hatred, bitterness, division and meanness are much easier but I always hope that the ways of Jesus prevail. He went to the cross because people said exactly the same things that I read here. They prefered to eliminate him than have imperfect liturgy by their standards or because he loved people he was not supposed to love or because he broke rules which were getting in the way of God’s love. I pray for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit because that is the only thing which will help with the sin that I have experienced in reading these postings today. Best wishes and prayers.

It isn’t about “bringing us together in love”. It’s about redemption for our sins and what Jesus had to suffer because of us. Check out the “clown masses” or the “halloween masses” on YouTube and you’ll see that there is no depth to the mockery that Our Savior The Lord Jesus Christ has had to endure at the hands of these liturgical butchers. While such abominations are rare, they do happen and the perpetrators deserve to be scolded! Jesus is worthy of the highest standard of worship we as Catholics can give him. The Traditional Latin Mass is the “gold standard” and has been for centuries.
Peace be with you.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

After reading the initial posting and all of the responses, I am ashamed to be Catholic. If being Catholic means judging everyone and finding that we are better, holier and the only good ones while having no love and compassion for anyone else, then the Catholic Church is worse than the approach that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees that he saw. I really think more and more that the Church in what I read here is abandoning Jesus Christ all together as well as the Holy Spirit for the sake of just being better and superior beings. That is exactly the opposite of the readings of this great feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross today. I do not know when it became more important to be right and better than everybody else rather than follow the two great commandments of Jesus but I hope that the Catholic Church returns to Jesus some day and what he preached because from what I read here, Jesus is not even thought of at all. Jesus healed those in need of healing on the Sabbath when he was scolded. He was present to the poor and oppressed in their need. He was scolded in the same way you are scolding. I would prefer to be on the side of Jesus and not finding fault with those who are doing his work but with trying to bring people together in love as he asked of us so that we can all be saved. I see why the Catholic Church is shrinking more all of the time and why people complain about the Church being hypocritical…I pray for all of the people who prefer the way of the pharisees that I see here that some day you experience the change of heart which helps you to follow the Beatitudes, the golden rule and the two great commandements. I know that it is very difficult to follow them. The ways of the world of hatred, bitterness, division and meanness are much easier but I always hope that the ways of Jesus prevail. He went to the cross because people said exactly the same things that I read here. They prefered to eliminate him than have imperfect liturgy by their standards or because he loved people he was not supposed to love or because he broke rules which were getting in the way of God’s love. I pray for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit because that is the only thing which will help with the sin that I have experienced in reading these postings today. Best wishes and prayers.

I will now make the time for a thorough reply.

First of all, your retort here could really not have been more completely predictable - you use exactly the same ‘argument’ those who wish to hide from Truth always use: those who are pointing out the falsehood are ‘evil’ because they are ‘uncompassionate’ and thus not Christ-like.

How many things are wrong with this argument? I will do my best to call out what I can see.

First, note that your condemnations of us - lacking compassion and not following Christ - are huge, sweeping, and very judgmental, and also presume to know the states of our minds and our souls close to completely. The argument is illogical for that reason alone.

Second, it is very easy to demonstrate that on this particular matter it is you who is not following Christ’s commands to us:

• “Those who are lukewarm I will spit out of My Mouth.”
• If your brother sins… take it before the Church. If he does not listen to the Church, treat him like he was a pagan or a tax collector." (Please read that several times.)
• “If one of you causes one of these little ones to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea.” (Of course, the whole point is that you & said bishop say that homosexual sex is not sin. Yet, here you disagree with the Magisterium for the last 2,000 years, ALL the early Fathers, ALL the Apostles, Christ, and all of Judaism as well.)
• Regarding the Pharisees: have you ever actually read the verses in question carefully? Christ said of them, “do as they say, not as they do.” He said this because they were hypocrites, but they had the lawful authority of God (the Seat of Moses) and spoke the truth. So, if, as you are making it out, we are the Pharisees here, you ought to be listening.

Most of your argument here consist of emotional non-sequiturs. This means that the facts you are stating have nothing at all to do with the matter at hand. Jesus was admonished for healing on the Sabbath? Yes, he was. He was above the Old Law; in fact, He instituted it. Please explain how this is related to being in a state of formal heresy? Arguing with emotional non-sequiturs is the mode of those who have no truthful argument.

As for the Church shrinking: the traditionally-minded diocese and parishes are booming. The true Catholic faith is booming. There are more vacations than ever. The liberal wing is, as you note, shrinking, and dying out, even. This is a blessing for the Church - we are near the end of a terrible trial.

Do you think that I or we here want to find fault? Of course you do; it the conclusion you jump to, which was made very obvious by your post. Really, about nothing could be farther from the truth. My wife & I went to Mass yesterday in a strange town hoping to have our need for the Word of God and especially the blessed sacrament met. Instead, we were very distracted by very nonstandard behavior, changed words of the Gospel, a bishop very specifically and purposefully referring to the altar as a “table” (this, too, is against Catholic teaching; I didn’t mention it before), and then, on to the ‘finale’, what we discovered when we returned and punched the name into Google. No, I assure you, this experience was not something desired. And neither was the attack that I knew would come for being a faithful Catholic and pointing out the heresy and disobedience we encountered.

I love my fellow man. I love God with all my heart. I spend every day following the two Great Commandments to the best of my ability - especially the first, because it is the first. And I sit comfortably in the complete confidence of the Holy Spirit that I, and we here, and the Church, are entirely right in this matter, and that you are wrong.

“Seek the approval of God, not of man.”

 

[japhy]

I have degrees in theology from Catholic Universities in this country and am a leader in the church.

What is your “leadership” post?

You have not specifically mentioned any heresy that I know of.

This bishop is purported to directly and willfully defy the Church’s perennial teaching on homosexual acts.

Apart from heresy, the bishop has also modified the liturgy (as Paul attests to), which it is (was, he’s retired) to safeguard in his diocese!

All of these postings are an implicit condemnation of the pope and all of the hierarchy since they appoint the bishops and they are the bishops. YOu are probably like that group out of New York who condemn our pope and think he is a heretic since he has changed so much of the way that the church relates to other churches and people of faith.

“Most Holy Family Monastery”? Sigh. Who’s being judgmental now? You assume you can spot a sedevacantist from a dozen forum posts? Speaking for myself, I am not one of them. I doubt anyone else in this thread is either.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I have degrees in theology from Catholic Universities in this country and am a leader in the church. You have not specifically mentioned any heresy that I know of. I hear only vague judgments. No one here participated in what is described at all and thinks that they can judge. I want church councils and papal documents cited telling me about the heresies involved as well as anything else that can be shown to prove what anyone is saying here. To condemn a bishop of the church who was called forward by a pope with the help of the Holy Spirit is really a prideful thing to do. I hope that whoever is doing this is a Cardinal of the Church or someone who works for the church because lay people should not be condemning the hierarchy in that way. I begin to understand why our church is dying and why we do not have enough priests and why young people are leaving left and right. I hear it all of the time from them. It is this attitude which is killing our church from the bottom up. Our church really needs prayers if we are going to be like this. We condemn based on our own opinions without allowing the pope and Cardinals to do their job. All of these postings are an implicit condemnation of the pope and all of the hierarchy since they appoint the bishops and they are the bishops. YOu are probably like that group out of New York who condemn our pope and think he is a heretic since he has changed so much of the way that the church relates to other churches and people of faith. I was shocked by their dvd which condemned the pope as a heretic because he has gone against so many of the councils of the church. I wish we could just all be one as Jesus prayed. I will really pray for that. I know that I will be condemned as a heretic for standing up for bishops and popes but I can live with that. I just want to do what Jesus wants. Please Jesus in the power of the Spirit help your church to stop condemning each other and help them to work together to love and serve you!!!

Sir,

You know of no heresy? How could you possibly say such a thing? The bishop states publicly that homosexual behavior is good. The Church states that such behavior always constitutes grave sin.

What do you have in common with the Pope, exactly? He is orthodox. He has, as a matter of fact, recently and numerous times in the past confirmed the Church’s teachings in this matter. So, the bishop for certain, and yourself by way of argument, would seem to have little in common with him. It is us here who defend orthodoxy and the teachings of the Church, out of love for our dear Savior, who are more truly in union with the See of Peter.

Your arguments here are an insult to everyone who reads them and to yourself as well.

As for the cardinals, yes, they will hear of this, or an attempt will be made to inform them at the least.

 

[redrosetea]

Fr Groeschel has openly stated many Catholic Universities are only Catholic in name…they are not teaching what the church teaches

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Fr Groeschel has openly stated many Catholic Universities are only Catholic in name…they are not teaching what the church teaches

I would add, also, that before David gave his credentials, he pointed out that in his opinion the Church was not of Christ. He prayed that the Church would return to Christ. Hmm.

 

[David_Ruby]

I have decided to give up on this form of communication. People are judging something that they did not experience and nameless bishop that they do not know. How does anyone even know what happened if they were not there? HOw does anyone know what this bishop has done if they do not even know what he did? What if we said that the name of this bishop was Joseph Ratzinger. What would people say then? Now I read that there are no more Catholic Universities. That means that nothing anyone has been taught above grade school is any good. There is no scholarship in the Catholic Church any more. What hope is there for any meaningful dialogue when we attack people we do not know anything about, criticize situations we have not experienced, assume that we know everything and no else does while assuming that everything which is not the Tridentine mass is a clown mass or something like it? I guess that no one likes this pope who has approved the New General Instruction that we follow for the mass or anything that this pope is doing who talked with the university people in Washington recently and told them that they were good. He was also a university professor. So he should be suspect as well since our Catholic Universities are no good. I have no hope for the church any more. From the pope on down to anyone who has studied or attends the mass approved by the pope, we are all going bad and should be condemned. Any mass before Trent was not good either. The Last Supper must have been invalid because it was not in Latin and it did not conform to the Tridentine form. Jesus actually spoke a language people understood and sat around a table with them as they broke bread (the scriptural name for the Eucharist) and shared from the same cup. There is no hope for the Catholic Church. We were wrong from the beginning. I do not know if Jesus knew that or now. It is a good think that he knows, we have finally perfected what he got wrong at the Last Supper. Thanks for enlightening me on how wrong our church is about everything. I will be more careful with everything from now on. Best wishes and prayers.

 

[japhy]

I have decided to give up on this form of communication. … Best wishes and prayers.

I’m assuming you might stick around to see what the reaction to this last post was. I don’t know why you refused to address the actual issue at hand, or address the simple questions that were asked to you.

How does anyone even know what happened if they were not there? HOw does anyone know what this bishop has done if they do not even know what he did? What if we said that the name of this bishop was Joseph Ratzinger. What would people say then?

We’re not permitted to name the bishop. Some of us happen to know (by deduction or otherwise), and are aware of the things that bishop has said that have been recorded by the media.

And it wasn’t Ratzinger, so that’s not the point. Please don’t change the subject.

Now I read that there are no more Catholic Universities.

Genuine Catholic education at the collegiate level has seemed to be less reliable lately. Catholic universities hire dissidents to teach the faith or blatantly defy the teachings of the Church (especially on morality).

Any mass before Trent was not good either.

Now that betrays a lack of liturgical-historical knowledge. The liturgy codified by Trent was not a new liturgy. The Gregorian Rite has changed very little since the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great (circa AD 600). The Mass as celebrated after Trent was substantially nearly identical to that celebrated 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 years prior.

From here, your arguments became more and more tenuous. You don’t appear to have any respect for the Church’s teaching on the use of the Latin language, even in the liturgy as reformed following Vatican II.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I have decided to give up on this form of communication. People are judging something that they did not experience and nameless bishop that they do not know. How does anyone even know what happened if they were not there? HOw does anyone know what this bishop has done if they do not even know what he did? What if we said that the name of this bishop was Joseph Ratzinger. What would people say then? Now I read that there are no more Catholic Universities. That means that nothing anyone has been taught above grade school is any good. There is no scholarship in the Catholic Church any more. What hope is there for any meaningful dialogue when we attack people we do not know anything about, criticize situations we have not experienced, assume that we know everything and no else does while assuming that everything which is not the Tridentine mass is a clown mass or something like it? I guess that no one likes this pope who has approved the New General Instruction that we follow for the mass or anything that this pope is doing who talked with the university people in Washington recently and told them that they were good. He was also a university professor. So he should be suspect as well since our Catholic Universities are no good. I have no hope for the church any more. From the pope on down to anyone who has studied or attends the mass approved by the pope, we are all going bad and should be condemned. Any mass before Trent was not good either. The Last Supper must have been invalid because it was not in Latin and it did not conform to the Tridentine form. Jesus actually spoke a language people understood and sat around a table with them as they broke bread (the scriptural name for the Eucharist) and shared from the same cup. There is no hope for the Catholic Church. We were wrong from the beginning. I do not know if Jesus knew that or now. It is a good think that he knows, we have finally perfected what he got wrong at the Last Supper. Thanks for enlightening me on how wrong our church is about everything. I will be more careful with everything from now on. Best wishes and prayers.

David,

You are either very confused or a very disingenuous obfuscater indeed.

What does the Tridentine Mass have to do with the issue at hand? I, for one, attend the Novus Ordo more often.

Why did you neglect to address ANY of the actual issues here?

How could you possibly be so ridiculous as to suggest that those here would criticize Ratzinger? You’re playing a common card: demonize anyone who criticizes a heretic position as disobedient, when in point of fact it is you who are defending and thus abetting the disobedience. Publicly, and repeatedly, and wholeheartedly telling the people that the Church’s moral teachings are wrong IS DISOBEDIENCE. To the Magesterium, to the Pope, to the Church, and to Christ.

The fact that the Church agrees with the majority here on the issue at hand was made clear when this bishop was forced to retire.

More obfuscation when you insist that those here commenting don’t know what they’re talking about. They know all they need to know from the first post: we have a bishop publicly teaching a specific heresy, which was detailed. For you to insinuate that they have no right to comment is arrogance, and for you to claim that no one but a bishop or cardinal has any right to hold an opinion on this matter at all (as you have said) would be an example of “clericalism”. You should look that up.

Finally, are we really to believe, after your posts here, that you are full of love and goodwill for all of us? Certainly more charity, understanding, and the difficult absorption of spite has been shown by others? Not to mention true concern for the Church?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I would also like to point out that your apparent lack of respect for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, freed by our pontiff, is a bit disturbing.

(Of course, the jump to that topic itself was nothing but an attempt to confuse the issue.)

 

[Mea_Culpa]

I have decided to give up on this form of communication. People are judging something that they did not experience and nameless bishop that they do not know. How does anyone even know what happened if they were not there? HOw does anyone know what this bishop has done if they do not even know what he did? What if we said that the name of this bishop was Joseph Ratzinger. What would people say then? Now I read that there are no more Catholic Universities. That means that nothing anyone has been taught above grade school is any good. There is no scholarship in the Catholic Church any more. What hope is there for any meaningful dialogue when we attack people we do not know anything about, criticize situations we have not experienced, assume that we know everything and no else does while assuming that everything which is not the Tridentine mass is a clown mass or something like it? I guess that no one likes this pope who has approved the New General Instruction that we follow for the mass or anything that this pope is doing who talked with the university people in Washington recently and told them that they were good. He was also a university professor. So he should be suspect as well since our Catholic Universities are no good. I have no hope for the church any more. From the pope on down to anyone who has studied or attends the mass approved by the pope, we are all going bad and should be condemned. Any mass before Trent was not good either. The Last Supper must have been invalid because it was not in Latin and it did not conform to the Tridentine form. Jesus actually spoke a language people understood and sat around a table with them as they broke bread (the scriptural name for the Eucharist) and shared from the same cup. There is no hope for the Catholic Church. We were wrong from the beginning. I do not know if Jesus knew that or now. It is a good think that he knows, we have finally perfected what he got wrong at the Last Supper. Thanks for enlightening me on how wrong our church is about everything. I will be more careful with everything from now on. Best wishes and prayers.

You’re in a leadership position in the Church and have degrees from Catholic universities?

Is this how they taught you how to reason at the Catholic university? You go from somebody expressing concern about what he experienced at one Mass to saying that he is saying “how wrong our church is about everything”?

Catholic universities must be worse than I thought.

 

[JessMBH]

Wow. I, with my whole heart, agree that the Catholic universities out there aren’t as “Catholic” as they should be. The Catholic schools around here are horrible. The only reason parent’s put them in is to “escape” all the public school hoodlums.

I attend Latin mass every Sunday. It’s quite reverent. There is no talking, everyone is dressed modestly (women is dresses with veils and men in suits.) You would not believe how different the mass experience is when you change these things and understand why you act/dress a certain way!

We took a 14 day cruise, only because both Sunday’s we would be docked to go to mass. We went to one in Aruba, that wasn’t very reverent. They had a lot of clapping and mostly indecent dress for mass. We didn’t know what to expect, and we slightly dissapointed. Then we went to mass in NYC. We were SO scared about what we would find. We didn’t want the young ones, much less ourselves, exposed to a mass that they were not used to. We went to a Polish mass, that was very reverent. The dress wasn’t overly modest, but it was cold outside, so we didn’t see any skin!! =) There was no clapping or talking and we were truly impressed! It just goes to show you, you never know where you’ll find reverent masses.

christianfamilyoutreach.com

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I have just had this thread brought to my attention. WOW All I can say is WOW. Y’all please pray for this ?bishop? and this parish they need prayers. I am in a Novus Ordo parish and it is very orthodox. I promise you it is nothing like this. Knowing the people at my parish, if these things were said, they would walk out or challenge him at the pulpit. Then the next step would be to the Archbishop. Keep all concerned in prayer
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I have just had this thread brought to my attention. WOW All I can say is WOW. Y’all please pray for this ?bishop? and this parish they need prayers. I am in a Novus Ordo parish and it is very orthodox. I promise you it is nothing like this. Knowing the people at my parish, if these things were said, they would walk out or challenge him at the pulpit. Then the next step would be to the Archbishop. Keep all concerned in prayer
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Thank you for the response, Deacon.

You’re the type of person we need in the clergy these days!

 

[northstar3]

I live in NE WI and am having these same difficulties. I’m not Catholic (yet), and was in RCIA earlier this year but left in part because of this. I’ve searched around, and to be sure, there are some very beautiful church buildings, but it seems that the majority of parishes I either visited or had correspondence with are of a more “liberal” variety (to put it generically).

Luckily I was encouraged in another thread to look for a TLM and have found one in Green Bay, about a 40-45 min drive away. It’s a small oratory headed by the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, which I’m planning on attending in the coming weeks.

While I enjoy a good beer, cheese and the Packers like most people here, it does sadden me when I see that being the religion of the area rather than what ought to be.

 

[CradleCath]

David,

You are either very confused or a very disingenuous obfuscater indeed.

What does the Tridentine Mass have to do with the issue at hand? I, for one, attend the Novus Ordo more often.

Why did you neglect to address ANY of the actual issues here?

How could you possibly be so ridiculous as to suggest that those here would criticize Ratzinger? You’re playing a common card: demonize anyone who criticizes a heretic position as disobedient, when in point of fact it is you who are defending and thus abetting the disobedience. Publicly, and repeatedly, and wholeheartedly telling the people that the Church’s moral teachings are wrong IS DISOBEDIENCE. To the Magesterium, to the Pope, to the Church, and to Christ.

The fact that the Church agrees with the majority here on the issue at hand was made clear when this bishop was forced to retire.

More obfuscation when you insist that those here commenting don’t know what they’re talking about. They know all they need to know from the first post: we have a bishop publicly teaching a specific heresy, which was detailed. For you to insinuate that they have no right to comment is arrogance, and for you to claim that no one but a bishop or cardinal has any right to hold an opinion on this matter at all (as you have said) would be an example of “clericalism”. You should look that up.

Finally, are we really to believe, after your posts here, that you are full of love and goodwill for all of us? Certainly more charity, understanding, and the difficult absorption of spite has been shown by others? Not to mention true concern for the Church?

I think that this poster, David Ruby, is more concerned about our reaction to the retired Bishop’s particular heresy…acceptance of gay sex, than anything else. Once again, I’ll say that…had this Bishop given a sermon saying that hate crimes are OK., that they, in fact, are less evil than crimes which simply invovle the stealing of someone’s money…Mr Ruby would be very angry.

As I said, on another thread, It’s the sin, itself, that makes the difference. Homosexuality is disordered & the practice of same, the approval of homosexual acts is a grievous sin.

 

[Pam_Folbrecht]

Luckily I was encouraged in another thread to look for a TLM and have found one in Green Bay, about a 40-45 min drive away. It’s a small oratory headed by the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, which I’m planning on attending in the coming weeks.

I think you will like it! The Institute of Christ the King in Milwaukee was the answer to our prayers after witnessing abuses and liberties taken with the liturgy (as well as many very shallow homilies) in many of the NO parishes around here. Now we are blessed to attend a reverent Mass with solid, orthodox teaching every week!

We looked into attending the Institute’s Mass in Green Bay during our Door County trip, but it was quite a drive from where we were staying. Now I wish we had just done it!

I’m hearing from more and more people (Catholic and Protestant) who just cannot believe that a bishop believes and teaches as this retired bishop does. I think that most just don’t want to take the time to research these things, to go beyond reading their local paper or getting their info. from somewhere but the evening news. I am convinced that those of us who are aware of important matters such as this–matters that are not typically covered well, or accurately, or with anything resembling a Catholic perspective, in our mainstream media–would do well to double our efforts in spreading the word.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I think you will like it! The Institute of Christ the King in Milwaukee was the answer to our prayers after witnessing abuses and liberties taken with the liturgy (as well as many very shallow homilies) in many of the NO parishes around here. Now we are blessed to attend a reverent Mass with solid, orthodox teaching every week!

We looked into attending the Institute’s Mass in Green Bay during our Door County trip, but it was quite a drive from where we were staying. Now I wish we had just done it!

I’m hearing from more and more people (Catholic and Protestant) who just cannot believe that a bishop believes and teaches as this retired bishop does. I think that most just don’t want to take the time to research these things, to go beyond reading their local paper or getting their info. from somewhere but the evening news. I am convinced that those of us who are aware of important matters such as this–matters that are not typically covered well, or accurately, or with anything resembling a Catholic perspective, in our mainstream media–would do well to double our efforts in spreading the word.

Pam,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Also, thank you for a very lovely dinner this evening.

 

[japhy]

Pam, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Also, thank you for a very lovely dinner this evening.

Get a room, you two.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Get a room, you two.

We have one.

We promise to keep that sort of silliness on the forums to an absolute minimum.

(Hey - there’s ‘silliness’ of much worse kind here as well. )