An unnerving but necessary question

[twiztedseraph]

Respectfully sirs, Jack T Chick, seller of lies and trash alleges *(prophet) mohammad married a four year old. I thought nothing of it until some on this forum mentioned it. I was going to ask of the truth in the matter.

Sorry for the inconvenience.
Peace and God’s mercy
Seraph

 

[exoflare]

It appears that Jack Chick is lying (again). Aisha was really six years old, not four, when Muhammad married her.

 

[twiztedseraph]

exoflare:

It appears that Jack Chick is lying (again). Aisha was really six years old, not four, when Muhammad married her.

Ummm, does that make it any better? Someone please tell me that the man did it to protect the girl or something…

 

[meedo]

The least age in which it is reported the Prophet PBUH married Aisha was 9 years old . Its a controversial issue though , there are many narations. Any way the point here is that this was really normal at the time. Aisha already had suiters befroe the prophet PBUH so it wasnt any where strange. Many people nowdays marry very young . So this isnt strange 1400 years ago. Plus this is a marriage and not some sort of affair.

Thanks
Meedo

 

[Della]

I don’t know much about the age at which a girl could marry and have conjugal relations with her husband in the Middle East at that time, but even in Europe very young girls were “married” but the marriage was not consummated until she was of age to bear children during the Middle Ages and right up until quite modern times. Just a thought that might explain marrying a 6 year old, but once again I do not know what the practice would have been in Islam at the time of Mohammed and his followers.

 

[meedo]

Well , from what i know really and from all i read as someone as bieng a muslim. This marriage wasnt somthing strange at all!!

I mean , you would find people accusing the prophet of alot of things, magic , herecy , Glory needs, ect but never oen of his enemies at the time accused him of marrying someone who is younger than the marriage age. So i guess this was normal back then .

Peace
meedo

 

[Anderson33]

Meedo;

Just because something is “normal” does not make it moral … today lots of people get drunk, do drugs, etc, etc … unfortunately those are very “normal” things these days … now, you muslims claim that muhamad came to set the best example for all humanity to see, so what you are saying is clearly contradictory: the “best” example following the “normal” practices of supposedly less moral people??? … I just don’t get it Meedo … by your rationale, if muhhamad was to appear these days, I could expect him to do drugs and get drunk??? … after all, those are very normal things nowadays, and since you just asserted that he followed and did the “normal” things that alleged less moral people did in his day, I could then very well expect such behaviour from him …

So I will pose the question again:

is/was marrying 6 year old girls right or wrong? moral or immoral??

Please give precise and straight answers …

thanks

meedo:

Well , from what i know really and from all i read as someone as bieng a muslim. This marriage wasnt somthing strange at all!!

I mean , you would find people accusing the prophet of alot of things, magic , herecy , Glory needs, ect but never oen of his enemies at the time accused him of marrying someone who is younger than the marriage age. So i guess this was normal back then .

Peace
meedo

 

[meedo]

Well your logic is a bit selective.

The less moral peopel of arabia didnt have EVERYTHING less moral!!!

I mean they are humans and for example they were very very generous. Now just because they were idol worshippers i will abolish generosity just because the idol worshippers wree generous!!

Plus the normal thing in society is accepted as long as it doesnt contradict with islam . There were nothing that God had put to set rules to age limitation of marriage and **NO SHE WASNT 6 YEARS OLD!!! ** I am telling you the **LEAST ** naration about her was that she was 9 Years old .

I am sorry i dont know if she was already a mature girl or not by that time !!! i didnt go ask her if she seen the blood or not !! And i dont think that you would have done differently or your ancestors 1400 years ago in a tribal desert place where women really had nothing to do except be a wife , No schools no nothing !!!

Now i know that Mary Became pregnant at 13 or somthing like that and nobody said anything abut it !! If its all about which women became mature when then i really dont have all teh necessary information!

And hey , rules change , if adam and eves sons and daughters didnt marry each other as in incest we wouldnt be here right

Peace

 

[Matt25]

Abraham’s brother Lot offered his daughters to the men of Sodom to be raped. Later he had sex with them himself. The Book of Genesis expresses no opinion about this. Was it wrong? Do such things matter in 2005?

 

[meedo]

Peace

Just for the record . We muslims believe that Lott never offered his daughters for sin or rape but for marriage. We also believe Prophets of God cannot commit the sin of getting drunk or sleeping with their daughters .

peace

 

[Anderson33]

you are very mistaken Meedo;

My logic is not selective because I am analysing your prophet based on the absolute morals that Jesus came to establish …

I see that you are willing to sacrifice your integrity and moral values just to get muhhamad off the hook my friend, but that will not work …

again, I am asking you the question:

is/was marrying a 6/9 year old girl moral or not??? is/was it right or not???

as for aisha being mature or not, either you are either being very dishonest or I know more than you about your prophet … there are clear hadithst that narrate that aisha was still playing with dolls when she was married with your prophet … that’s a very sure sign of immaturity, don’t you think??? …

what I find very amusing is the fact that you tell me that I would not have done any different had I been born 1400 years ago … well, I am a very fallible human, so yes, I will give you that one … however, the big difference is that I, unlike your prophet, am not claiming prophet hood nor telling anybody to follow my example !!!

get it Meedo?

I am going to write again, this time with bold letters:

what I find very amusing is the fact that you tell me that I would not have done any different had I been born 1400 years ago … well, I am a very fallible human, so yes, I will give you that one … however, the big difference is that I, unlike your prophet, am not claiming prophet hood nor telling anybody to follow my example !!!

so yes Meedo, you can say whatever you like about me and others not being any better than your prophet, yes, I am only human and very weak, so in that regard, I am not any better than your prophet … then again, I am not claiming that I am the best example for all human kind to follow …

as usual, you muslims now are trying to justify the very questionable actions of your prophet by pointing out the actions of past prophets … yes, go ahead and do it, and while you are it, let me remind you that we are called Christians, and Jesus stands as our ultimate paradigm and role model !!! …

muhhamad is islam and islam is muhhamad, likewise, the Jesus revealed by scripture and traditions is Christianity, and Christianity is the Jesus revealed by tradition and scripture … keep that in mind the next time that you try to justify your prophet by pointing fingers to David, Solomon, Lot, etc … we Christians are commanded to follow the example of our lord Jesus Christ !!!

As for whether the rules of society can change, yes, the rules and morals of fallible and corrupt humans do change …. However, I thought that your prophet had direct contact with god ??? …… are you saying that the example of muhhamad should be buried in the Arab desert of the 7th century and does not apply today??? … your prophet should have know better, don’t you think???

Thank you very much for proving my point !!

one last thing that I find very amusing with some muslims: I have read in other forums that they, like Christians, consider that Jesus never sinned … if they think so, then it is just mind-boggling to me that if they believe Jesus was only human, and Jesus was sinless, how come they consider muhhahad, a declared sinner, the best example to follow instead of Jesus ???

Could you reply with precise and straight answers Meedo??

Thanks

meedo:

Well your logic is a bit selective.

The less moral peopel of arabia didnt have EVERYTHING less moral!!!

I mean they are humans and for example they were very very generous. Now just because they were idol worshippers i will abolish generosity just because the idol worshippers wree generous!!

Plus the normal thing in society is accepted as long as it doesnt contradict with islam . There were nothing that God had put to set rules to age limitation of marriage and **NO SHE WASNT 6 YEARS OLD!!! ** I am telling you the **LEAST ** naration about her was that she was 9 Years old .

I am sorry i dont know if she was already a mature girl or not by that time !!! i didnt go ask her if she seen the blood or not !! And i dont think that you would have done differently or your ancestors 1400 years ago in a tribal desert place where women really had nothing to do except be a wife , No schools no nothing !!!

Now i know that Mary Became pregnant at 13 or somthing like that and nobody said anything abut it !! If its all about which women became mature when then i really dont have all teh necessary information!

And hey , rules change , if adam and eves sons and daughters didnt marry each other as in incest we wouldnt be here right

Peace

 

[Anderson33]

Last I checked, we’re not called “Lottians”, we are called Christians !!!

if you don’t believe me, then go read our scriptures and traditions again …

and yes, the example and actions of our lord Jesus Christ do matter in 2005, did matter in the past, and will matter until the end of time for us Christians !!!

thank you very much for proving my point: the example of your “prophet” should be buried in the Arab desert of the 7th century …… by the way, if that’s the way you think, then you know better than allah, as he strongly commands muslims to follow the example of muhhamad !!!

again, thanks for proving my point …

Regards

Matt25:

Abraham’s brother Lot offered his daughters to the men of Sodom to be raped. Later he had sex with them himself. The Book of Genesis expresses no opinion about this. Was it wrong? Do such things matter in 2005?

 

[r.gonzales]

from authentic narrations, aa’ishah was 6 years old when her father married her off to prophet muhammad. this is when the marriage contract was drafted, after which time she remained with her father until the marriage was completed (i.e., consumated), which occurred when aa’ishah reached the age of menstration (which was when she was 9).

you can read more about this issue here: allaahuakbar.net/womens/young_marriage_of_aishah.htm

 

[twiztedseraph]

Thank you for your kind replies, I do hope you know I asked sincerely from curiosity. I’m just wondering whether people would consider this moral in any circumstance.

 

[meedo]

well you dont prove ANY point nearly. And take it easy lol!

As for Dolls. I was a 13 year old when i still used to play with some batman dolls and stuff so its no problem really .

As if it is Moral to marry a nine year old YES itr is moral and there is no problem with it if it is not sin . And again we dont have any reason to do that now as we have alot of things to offer for our children up till they can even get a masters these days . So its equally better for even boys to wait untill they finish University and then think about marriage.

You are trying to say that prophets dont do Marry people if they are young a 9 year old because that is unprophet like. Man ew know that solomon had nearly 1000 wife and David 100 and Many for Jacob. I dont kwo if all these ancestors of Jesus were prophet like or not but i never saw any condemnantion for them in the bible . and In your bible Lot got drunk and sleapt with his daughters!!!

I didnt see any part of the bible condemning solomon of jacob for taking many wives for example?

yes Jesus didnt sin and that doesnt make him devine. Angels Dont sin and that doesnt make them devine. The mother of Maryt already made a prayer when Mary and Jesus were born to protect them both and their ancestry from satan whispers . So we have the reason and that reason is not because of divinity.

And yes i compare with the bible because you dont make sense . If jesus was Gdo then he must have been teh one who given the OLD testament and advised all the prophets before and guided them . I guess they were so messed up and he didnt even tell them anything .

And please take it easy . There are alot of verses in teh Old testament that can be much harsher than any of teh Quran . If jesus was God then was he somthing else in teh OT other than the NT?!

salam

 

[Matt25]

Anderson33:

Last I checked, we’re not called “Lottians”, we are called Christians !!!

Sacred scripture from Genesis on is affirmed as being true by the Magisterium. My point is that servants of God like Lot or Abraham, who had a wife and concubine and sent one son into the desert and was about to cut the other ones throat, Jacob, who had two wives and two concubines et al did things that modern servants of God would not do. Some values are eternal and some are not. After all many Christians owned slaves. Do you? Would you?

**

and yes, the example and actions of our lord Jesus Christ do matter in 2005, did matter in the past, and will matter until the end of time for us Christians !!!

---

**I never suggested otherwise. Our Lord suggested these things which you no doubt do yourself

15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Mark 16

thank you very much for proving my point: the example of your “prophet” should be buried in the Arab desert of the 7th century

He is not my prophet. I am a Catholic. I simply seek to follow the guidance of the Church which said
"The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth (Cf. St. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anazir [Al-Nasir], King of Mauretania PL, 148. 451A.), who has spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet, his Virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.

“Over the centuries many quarrels and dissensions have arisen between Christians and Muslims. The sacred Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together preserve and promote peace, social justice and moral values.”
Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3, October 28, 1965

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

r.gonzales:

from authentic narrations, aa’ishah was 6 years old when her father married her off to prophet muhammad. this is when the marriage contract was drafted, after which time she remained with her father until the marriage was completed (i.e., consumated), which occurred when aa’ishah reached the age of menstration (which was when she was 9).

you can read more about this issue here: allaahuakbar.net/womens/young_marriage_of_aishah.htm

so you follow someone whom you believed to be a prophet who had sexual intercourse with a girl who was just 9 years old?

 

[meedo]

Yes

 

[r.gonzales]

Semper Fi:

so you follow someone whom you believed to be a prophet who had sexual intercourse with a girl who was just 9 years old?

i follow someone who was a prophet and messenger sent to mankind who married and had relations with someone who was physically mature enough to bear children, biologically making her a woman - regardless of what your, or today’s social norms state.

 

[jcaz]

i follow someone who was a prophet and messenger sent to mankind who married and had relations with someone who was physically mature enough to bear children, biologically making her a woman - regardless of what your, or today’s social norms state.

Very well stated.

This is a problem with many religions today. Instead of basing many of their religious/moral views on their respective holy book, they take the “moral views” of society and dictate them to their holy book. I cannot speak for Christianity, but for Islaam, our moral views are taken from the Quraan and the Sunnah of prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam, and there is no one who needs to be shy of this. I am not shy to tell you that polygamy (Mod note: corrected word at request of poster) is morally allowed, as it was practiced by not only Muhammad, but by MANY of the biblical prophets. And for someone to come here and say “all prophets were sinners and therefore this was a sin”, HOW DO YOU KNOW? God sent the prophets as EXAMPLES. You know, this is one of the many appealing things about Islaam. We respect and hold the prophets in places of honor. I cannot understand this ARROGANCE to say that “all those prophets sinned and that’s why that had multiple wives and concubines.” The prophets were NOT pimps, as some of you like to describe them. They upheld THE HIGHEST MORAL STANDARD, higher than you or I could dream of. It sickens me to see how a Catholic can seem to place himself and his “amazing moral code” over that of a Prophet. A’uuthu billaahi.

So back to the topic. As Muslims, we do not take society’s “high moral code” (sarcasm intended) and use that as a medium through which to understand the Quraan. Rather we take the moral code of the Quraan and use that as a medium to understand right and wrong in society.

Let’s state that again, because that may have gone in one ear and out the other:

As Muslims, we do not take society’s “high moral code” (sarcasm intended) and use that as a medium through which to understand the Quraan. Rather we take the moral code of the Quraan and use that as a medium to understand right and wrong in society.

It is permissible to have sexual relations with a woman once she has begun menstruating. Menstruation is the sign for the beginning of child bearing years. Women, hundreds, and especially thousands, of years ago, were married much younger than today, and this is no doubt due to the lower life expectancy. Surely, if life expectancy was much lower, one would expect that the “stages” of one’s life would also be shorter also. So if it is “acceptable” according to today’s “high standards” to be married at 18 and life expectancy is roughly 80ish. So if life expectancy is 1/2 that, one would not expect men or women to wait until half of their life is over to marry.

So because of our longer life expectancies, and because of many other cultural/society influences, children are less and less mature at older ages. Why is this? I do not have all the answers. But everyone will agree that a 10 year old 100 years was much more mature than a 10 year old today. And that is only 100 years ago, so what about 1000 or 2000 years ago?

Bottom line, 'Aaisha was menstruating when the marriage was consummated, and according to Islaam, that is the sign that allows for sexual relations to take place with a woman. It is not for you or I to use our “high standards” to dictate what is true or false about our religion.

And lastly, there are many narrations regarding the marriage of 'Aaisha, but the authentic narrations state she was married at 6 and the marriage consummated at 9. And there is no reason to be shy of this. Refer to the link that my brother gonzales gave earlier for more information.