anal sex between married couples

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Walking_Home said:
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Pope Benedict XVI --general audience

Saint Alphonsus Liguori

Esteemed for his goodness and for his pastoral zeal, in 1762 Alphonsus was appointed Bishop of Sant’Agata dei Goti, a ministry which he left, following the illness which debilitated him, in 1775, through a concession of Pope Pius VI. On learning of his death in 1787, which occurred after great suffering, the Pontiff exclaimed: “he was a saint!”. And he was not mistaken: Alphonsus was canonized in 1839 and in 1871 he was declared a Doctor of the Church. This title suited him for many reason. First of all, because he offered a rich teaching of moral theology, which expressed adequately the Catholic doctrine, to the point that Pope Pius XII proclaimed him “Patron of all confessors and moral theologians”.

So? This doesn’t mean that everything he wrote was true, nor that anything he wrote was infallible.
 
Debora123 said:
I can see the confusion with the quote. It says “even between lawful man and wife adultery is committed when their intercourse takes the form of sodomy.”

“Intercourse taking the form of sodomy” I think means having anal sex instead of intercourse. Not as mere foreplay to intercourse.
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Sodomy is defined as anal intercourse between two homosexuals. So as a heterosexual, you are imitating homosexual sex when you have anal sex with your husband. So you are committing sodomy, no matter how you want to make it look like. Sodomy is sodomy and sodomy is a grave sin. You seem to like to have it both ways.:mad:
 
secondeve said:
Pope Benedict XVI --general audience

Saint Alphonsus Liguori

Esteemed for his goodness and for his pastoral zeal, in 1762 Alphonsus was appointed Bishop of Sant’Agata dei Goti, a ministry which he left, following the illness which debilitated him, in 1775, through a concession of Pope Pius VI. On learning of his death in 1787, which occurred after great suffering, the Pontiff exclaimed: “he was a saint!”. And he was not mistaken: Alphonsus was canonized in 1839 and in 1871 he was declared a Doctor of the Church. This title suited him for many reason. First of all, because he offered a rich teaching of moral theology, which expressed adequately the Catholic doctrine, to the point that Pope Pius XII proclaimed him “Patron of all confessors and moral theologians”.

So? This doesn’t mean that everything he wrote was true, nor that anything he wrote was infallible.
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The Church trusts his teachings----I go with that.
 
Walking_Home said:
I’d say it holds more weight than Fr. Jone. But if sodomy/adultery floats your boat–well whatever.
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Or it could be argued that Fr Jone’s opinion, later to that of St Alphonsus, provides clarification. As Debora has suggested, the difference may be in perfect vs imperfect sodomy, which is not made clear by St Alphonsus but is discussed by Fr Jone.

St Alponsus may well be trusted by the Chrush, but clearly so was Fr Jone - trusted enough to guide priests in their receiving confessions. If St Alphonsus meant what you take him to mean (which I don’t concede that he does), and was so trusted, why was Fr Jone’s opinion not corrected? Why the contradiction?

Neither psoition is official. But if we want some sort of guidance, wouldn’t the latter position, that of Fr Jone, which happens to treat the issue in greater detail to avoid arguments around definition, be a good guide?
 
underacloud said:
**Or it could be argued that Fr Jone’s opinion, later to that of St Alphonsus, provides clarification. ** As Debora has suggested, the difference may be in perfect vs imperfect sodomy, which is not made clear by St Alphonsus but is discussed by Fr Jone.

St Alponsus may well be trusted by the Chrush, but clearly so was Fr Jone - trusted enough to guide priests in their receiving confessions. If St Alphonsus meant what you take him to mean (which I don’t concede that he does), and was so trusted, why was Fr Jone’s opinion not corrected? Why the contradiction?

Neither psoition is official. But if we want some sort of guidance, wouldn’t the latter position, that of Fr Jone, which happens to treat the issue in greater detail to avoid arguments around definition, be a good guide?
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No – not really. You see under adultery in the New Advent–which is the Catholic Encyclopedia–the teaching by St. Alphonsus Liguori on sodomizing a wife as being adultery is still present . So–it has not been superceeded.

As to Fr. Jone-- his idea of "perfect/imperfect sodomy more than likely went under the radar of Rome.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Sodomy is defined as anal intercourse between two homosexuals. So as a heterosexual, you are imitating homosexual sex when you have anal sex with your husband. So you are committing sodomy, no matter how you want to make it look like. Sodomy is sodomy and sodomy is a grave sin.
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Mmmmm no, not really. Please see below.
"it is neither sodomy nor a sin if intercourse is begun in the rectal manner with the intention of completing it in the natural manner" (Jone “Moral Theology” 757)
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In case you missed it earlier, Moral Theology was THE book used by priests in the confessional as an aid to help the priest distinguish between what is and is not sinful.
CHRISTINE77 said:
You seem to like to have it both ways.:mad:
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BTW, I don’t have anal sex with my husband. Never have, never will, and have no desire to.

Why are you so angry?
 
Walking_Home said:
No – not really. You see under adultery in the New Advent–which is the Catholic Encyclopedia–the teaching by St. Alphonsus Liguori on sodomizing a wife as being adultery is still present . So–it has not been superceeded.

As to Fr. Jone-- his idea of "perfect/imperfect sodomy more than likely went under the radar of Rome.
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It is not defined as sodomy if it is an act of foreplay prior to heterosexual intercourse:

**
"it is neither sodomy nor a sin if intercourse is begun in the rectal manner with the intention of completing it in the natural manner" (Jone “Moral Theology” 757)
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**
 
Walking_Home said:
No – not really. You see under adultery in the New Advent–which is the Catholic Encyclopedia–the teaching by St. Alphonsus Liguori on sodomizing a wife as being adultery is still present . So–it has not been superceeded.

As to Fr. Jone-- his idea of "perfect/imperfect sodomy more than likely went under the radar of Rome.
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It still revolves around definitions of sodomy. St Alphonsus does not clarify whether his definition of sodomy refers to completed sexual acts that replace proper intercourse. You assume it does; others, based on Fr Jone’s clarification of the issue, assume it does not.
 
secondeve said:
That’s your decision, but as you are not infallible either (and neither is the Pope when not speaking ex cathedra) you have no right to impose these views on other people.
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I never claimed to be infallible. As to your claim to "infallibility/speaking ex-cathedra–should this than mean that we dump every Church teaching that is not an “ex-cathedra” pronouncement. You kinda remind me of the protestants–who argue that the Catholic Church is false because they claim Her teachings as being man made.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Sodomy is defined as anal intercourse between two homosexuals. So as a heterosexual, you are imitating homosexual sex when you have anal sex with your husband. So you are committing sodomy, no matter how you want to make it look like. Sodomy is sodomy and sodomy is a grave sin. You seem to like to have it both ways.:mad:
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But if the couple uses it as act of foreplay, with the intention of carrying it out to completion in the proper way with the mutual consent of the spouses, it’s not a sin. I disagree with you that a certain act of foreplay - any foreplay - carried out within the context of marital intercourse and which is brought to completion with ejaculation occuring inside the wife’s vagina is grave sin.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Sodomy is defined as anal intercourse between two homosexuals. So as a heterosexual, you are imitating homosexual sex when you have anal sex with your husband. So you are committing sodomy, no matter how you want to make it look like. Sodomy is sodomy and sodomy is a grave sin. You seem to like to have it both ways.:mad:
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OK, so if this is the case, oral foreplay is forbidden for married couples as well?
 
Walking_Home said:
I never claimed to be infallible. As to your claim to "infallibility/speaking ex-cathedra–should this than mean that we dump every Church teaching that is not an “ex-cathedra” pronouncement. You kinda remind me of the protestants–who argue that the Catholic Church is false because they claim Her teachings as being man made.
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They aren’t?? :eek::confused:
 
Hebrews 13.4 says: Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

Sex exists to reinforce the “oneness” of the marital couple. And, while some (including me) would be hard-pressed to see a sense of “oneness” in the act of anal foreplay, if it does for someone, I believe it should be ok. Conversly, vaginal intercourse in marriage could violate oneness if it’s forced.

Only God knows our hearts and our intentions. If the couple is married and willing and getting a sense of oneness from what they are doing, they should be on solid ground.

Peter Kreeft gives a really good talk on this subject (link below)

peterkreeft.com/audio/40_sexual-reconnection.htm
 
Walking_Home said:
It is still sodomy Debra123. Coming before heterosexual intercourse–does not change that.
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The source I posted says otherwise, not me.

This source is a Catholic book that was used by priests around the world in the confessional, specifically so that they could tell their confessors about the gravity of their sins… or non sins in this case.

I didn’t make this up, it is coming from a widespread Catholic source used by millions of priests.
 
Debora123 said:
The source I posted says otherwise, not me.

This source is a Catholic book that was used by priests around the world in the confessional, specifically so that they could tell their confessors about the gravity of their sins… or non sins in this case.

I didn’t make this up, it is coming from a widespread Catholic source used by millions of priests.
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I didn’t make it up either–and keep in mind—Saint Alphonsus Ligouri is much-much higher up the scale in matters of morality as compared to Fr. Jone.
 
Warrior1979 said:
Since you’re taking the position that the Church is not infalliable on moral matters, no.
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Haha, ok guys, this is becoming painful to watch. I will then ask the question that secondeve originally asked you, Warrior. I’m curious to know as well.
Are there ANY infallible pronouncements on sexual issues?
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Walking_Home said:
I didn’t make it up either–and keep in mind—Saint Alphonsus Ligouri is much-much higher up the scale in matters of morality as compared to Fr. Jone.
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I know you didn’t make it up. I understand that this great saint DID say sodomy was wrong, even between wife and husband.

And he is right, of course.

The book, Moral Theology doesn’t say that sodomy is licit. It says that anal penetration performed with the intent of being just foreplay, is all together NOT sodomy. Therefore it is licit.

One does not contradict the other.
 
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