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twopekinguys
Guest
Which were obtained by using deception. i.e. geneological research
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Yeah, and then indignation when the access to our records is stopped.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
MtOlympus…
Seeing the behavior of Mormon families towards some of their members who became Catholic tells me, as well as reading past anti-Catholic beliefs of Mormonism up into the 1980-'s, ours the devil church…I don’t think most Mormons would like to be baptized behind their backs.
Baptism is the incorporation into the mystical Body of Christ; it is bringing us into the waters of new life…it is not about some beliefs of Joseph Smith.
The Catholic Church’s role is to bring us to the total truth of Jesus Christ, and nurture us into a living relationship with him.
Our faith is squarely based on the witness of the apostles…and not some man 1800 years later.
Otherwise, to believe in some contrary and controversial man on the other side of the planet, far from the Holy Land, in a country whose majority of citizens practice a dismantled form of Christianity to begin with…you don’t think you are not coming up with a founder who is not operating with full capacities???
The pope does not have God appear to Him, and then tell the Pope to bail out of what has been handed down to us through the Holy Spirit at work with humanity…and now contradict…the driving force of humility in the priesthood…to now condemn the Church itself?..If anything, people would rather tend to believe somebody gave the Pope a drink with a psychedelic drug instead.
The true spirit of Jesus does not come to condemn but to save…and He would not condemn the countless martyrs of the first 300 years who participated in the Eucharist, call their beliefs in Him corrupt or an abomination.
Seeing the behavior of Mormon families towards some of their members who became Catholic tells me, as well as reading past anti-Catholic beliefs of Mormonism up into the 1980-'s, ours the devil church…I don’t think most Mormons would like to be baptized behind their backs.
Baptism is the incorporation into the mystical Body of Christ; it is bringing us into the waters of new life…it is not about some beliefs of Joseph Smith.
The Catholic Church’s role is to bring us to the total truth of Jesus Christ, and nurture us into a living relationship with him.
Our faith is squarely based on the witness of the apostles…and not some man 1800 years later.
Otherwise, to believe in some contrary and controversial man on the other side of the planet, far from the Holy Land, in a country whose majority of citizens practice a dismantled form of Christianity to begin with…you don’t think you are not coming up with a founder who is not operating with full capacities???
The pope does not have God appear to Him, and then tell the Pope to bail out of what has been handed down to us through the Holy Spirit at work with humanity…and now contradict…the driving force of humility in the priesthood…to now condemn the Church itself?..If anything, people would rather tend to believe somebody gave the Pope a drink with a psychedelic drug instead.
The true spirit of Jesus does not come to condemn but to save…and He would not condemn the countless martyrs of the first 300 years who participated in the Eucharist, call their beliefs in Him corrupt or an abomination.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
There is true witness to faith…but there is a spiritual truth that virtue tends to hide itself, whereas pride brags and boasts and assume it is better than everyone else…
That is what I see in your founder, and pride is the worst sin.
We do not earn our way into heaven doing temple recommends or submitting ourselves to men who do not have the same consistency of faith and practice, who demand you tithe for the temple…where these illicit baptisms of the dead are performed…and this idea of marriage producing new children in the heavens…that contradicts Christ Himself who says there is no marriage in heaven.
What endures is our faith in Christ and with whom we shared our common faith in Him. As He says, He is present when two or three are gathered, and surely our loved ones who persevered in Christ will know full communion of God in heaven, as well as a greater communion with each other, not based on sexual activity but souls full of grace and Christ’s love.
That is what I see in your founder, and pride is the worst sin.
We do not earn our way into heaven doing temple recommends or submitting ourselves to men who do not have the same consistency of faith and practice, who demand you tithe for the temple…where these illicit baptisms of the dead are performed…and this idea of marriage producing new children in the heavens…that contradicts Christ Himself who says there is no marriage in heaven.
What endures is our faith in Christ and with whom we shared our common faith in Him. As He says, He is present when two or three are gathered, and surely our loved ones who persevered in Christ will know full communion of God in heaven, as well as a greater communion with each other, not based on sexual activity but souls full of grace and Christ’s love.
M
mtolympus
Guest
Could that be the the reason the angel Moroni was sent to Joseph Smith rather than the Pope?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Finally it is acknowledged by the Apostles themselves that Christ and they being chosen, came at the predetermined time…
So nothing is lost except those who do not persevere in the faith.
The Temple was destroyed. There was a third Roman emperor, Justin the Apostate, who was so determined to prove salvation history wrong, he attempted to rebuild the Temple, and encountered so many problems and difficulties he gave up.
Jesus said He would rebuild the temple in 3 days…and He is the Temple…we reside in Him. He does not ask for our W-2 form, He does not ask us to go to work for Him to earn our way. He loves us unconditionally.
Christ loves us in such a way that no time will ever be enough for us to finally understand and completely know how much He loves us, and that is part of the reason that human marriage and procreation is miniscule in comparison to the Love Christ has for us for those who persevere to the end, often when the surroundings around you tell you that there is no God and all your efforts to encounter Him are in vain.
To follow one man, and not Christ and come to see Christ as the Logos, the Word of God made Man, is to place Joseph Smith before Him and to bring yourself back to that great temptation…to be like a god.
True Christianity rather is marked by communion, that is most perfected in the Catholic Church where we have the successor to Peter. We are called to faith that brings us into communion.
If you follow one self-righteous man whose revelations condemned virtue and true witness, as well as the truth of Christianity, then you are bringing yourself into an adversarial culture of isolation and self-interest…no matter the outward works.
In regards to the Book of Malachi, it speaks of corruption but is not pointing at the Catholic Church, but the Jewish people and and how so many left the one true God and married sorcerers…this ties in with Christ saying that the Temple will be destroyed.
Christ is the new temple, we are the members that reside in Him…you cannot imply with the misuse of Malachi that the Eucharist is corrupt or the liturgy corrupt, because for one thing you have been indoctrinated with misappropriate and out of context Scripture takes to use to condemn Catholicism and true worship.
The Eucharist IS Christ. The sacred scriptures mention 22 times the new Covenant of the Blood, and the worship form in memorial. Our Lord’s ascension into heaven places Him at the altar of God, crucified, wounded, but standing in glory and life, connected to the Mass said here on earth 24 hours a day.
Christ cannot label His very own person as corrupt. His Eucharist is His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. To imply the Eucharist is corrupt could be taken as blasphemous and a sacrilege.
That is why I see Mormonism’s charity as veiled.
We are warned and exhorted to be protected against the veil of religion, wherever it may be, that hides its malice with public works and being nice.
True virtue is based not on our actions, but on Christ living through us, and most Catholics know that it is better to do all in the presence of God and not let people know. The glory is then for Christ alone and not to look good or nice in front of people.
So nothing is lost except those who do not persevere in the faith.
The Temple was destroyed. There was a third Roman emperor, Justin the Apostate, who was so determined to prove salvation history wrong, he attempted to rebuild the Temple, and encountered so many problems and difficulties he gave up.
Jesus said He would rebuild the temple in 3 days…and He is the Temple…we reside in Him. He does not ask for our W-2 form, He does not ask us to go to work for Him to earn our way. He loves us unconditionally.
Christ loves us in such a way that no time will ever be enough for us to finally understand and completely know how much He loves us, and that is part of the reason that human marriage and procreation is miniscule in comparison to the Love Christ has for us for those who persevere to the end, often when the surroundings around you tell you that there is no God and all your efforts to encounter Him are in vain.
To follow one man, and not Christ and come to see Christ as the Logos, the Word of God made Man, is to place Joseph Smith before Him and to bring yourself back to that great temptation…to be like a god.
True Christianity rather is marked by communion, that is most perfected in the Catholic Church where we have the successor to Peter. We are called to faith that brings us into communion.
If you follow one self-righteous man whose revelations condemned virtue and true witness, as well as the truth of Christianity, then you are bringing yourself into an adversarial culture of isolation and self-interest…no matter the outward works.
In regards to the Book of Malachi, it speaks of corruption but is not pointing at the Catholic Church, but the Jewish people and and how so many left the one true God and married sorcerers…this ties in with Christ saying that the Temple will be destroyed.
Christ is the new temple, we are the members that reside in Him…you cannot imply with the misuse of Malachi that the Eucharist is corrupt or the liturgy corrupt, because for one thing you have been indoctrinated with misappropriate and out of context Scripture takes to use to condemn Catholicism and true worship.
The Eucharist IS Christ. The sacred scriptures mention 22 times the new Covenant of the Blood, and the worship form in memorial. Our Lord’s ascension into heaven places Him at the altar of God, crucified, wounded, but standing in glory and life, connected to the Mass said here on earth 24 hours a day.
Christ cannot label His very own person as corrupt. His Eucharist is His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. To imply the Eucharist is corrupt could be taken as blasphemous and a sacrilege.
That is why I see Mormonism’s charity as veiled.
We are warned and exhorted to be protected against the veil of religion, wherever it may be, that hides its malice with public works and being nice.
True virtue is based not on our actions, but on Christ living through us, and most Catholics know that it is better to do all in the presence of God and not let people know. The glory is then for Christ alone and not to look good or nice in front of people.
H
HonoraDominum
Guest
That one can be explained in the New Testament, too.
[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 11:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Likewise, Luther stated an angel of God appeared to him exhorting him not to go through with the dismantling of Christianity. Yes, the pope in that time was corrupt, but that did not make his office corrupt.
And moments after Jesus named Peter the Rock and to build His church on him and the apostles, Peter then proceeded to advise Christ to save himself and not go through with His Passion and death. Christ called Peter Satan, to get behind Him,…moments after Christ named Him Peter.
Having people run His church is the coming of God to His people, the effect of the Incarnation.
If Luther had persevered, and had correction made to those abuses in the Church some time ago, he would have been a saint.
Instead he took on the spirit of judge and executor, began writing his own propaganda and labelling the Church and pope as anti Christ, denying the Church was continuing in the life of the Holy Spirit.
What is sad is that it is not the Catholic Church’s fault it did not invent the printing press. And Luther totally ignored movements in the Church by pastors and lay people to counteract corruption. Furthermore, there were great movements, particularly in Germany, to form their own ethnic jurisdiction, and let go of the more transcendent, universal mark of the Church as mystical, for form that is physical, ethnic, nationalistic, and divided.
And St. Paul says that in later times, people will marry and many given to reading…because marriage did not have the value it had then…only realized in Christianity and fidelity to one another…and most people not being able to read,
Not being able to read then…consider that Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…and how today, it is coming out of experiments on human beings to create new types of organisms…or deciding man has the right to abort a human being, and rename it a glob of tissue…
Same goes for re-naming our faith as corrupt.
The Catholic Church is the sole interpreter of Sacred of Scripture, of the truth of Jesus Christ. It is up to the individual to believe…we are all given free choice.
You cannot condemn the Church because of the famous few who failed.
And moments after Jesus named Peter the Rock and to build His church on him and the apostles, Peter then proceeded to advise Christ to save himself and not go through with His Passion and death. Christ called Peter Satan, to get behind Him,…moments after Christ named Him Peter.
Having people run His church is the coming of God to His people, the effect of the Incarnation.
If Luther had persevered, and had correction made to those abuses in the Church some time ago, he would have been a saint.
Instead he took on the spirit of judge and executor, began writing his own propaganda and labelling the Church and pope as anti Christ, denying the Church was continuing in the life of the Holy Spirit.
What is sad is that it is not the Catholic Church’s fault it did not invent the printing press. And Luther totally ignored movements in the Church by pastors and lay people to counteract corruption. Furthermore, there were great movements, particularly in Germany, to form their own ethnic jurisdiction, and let go of the more transcendent, universal mark of the Church as mystical, for form that is physical, ethnic, nationalistic, and divided.
And St. Paul says that in later times, people will marry and many given to reading…because marriage did not have the value it had then…only realized in Christianity and fidelity to one another…and most people not being able to read,
Not being able to read then…consider that Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil…and how today, it is coming out of experiments on human beings to create new types of organisms…or deciding man has the right to abort a human being, and rename it a glob of tissue…
Same goes for re-naming our faith as corrupt.
The Catholic Church is the sole interpreter of Sacred of Scripture, of the truth of Jesus Christ. It is up to the individual to believe…we are all given free choice.
You cannot condemn the Church because of the famous few who failed.
M
mtolympus
Guest
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Can you see why non-LDS might be upset by this? I have asked the LDS members that have come here this and no seems to be able to “put themselves in someone else’s shoes” so to speak.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Problem is that Christ came at the appropriate time.
Christ chose the time He wish to begin His ministry here on earth.
He was born during the time of the Constellation of the Ram
Do you know that when Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him, Abraham was thwarted by an angel to not go through with this sacrifice…
But that the angel pointed out to Abraham to sacrifice the ram that was caught in a bush…to represent that some day there would come the true Sacrifice of the Lamb.
March 25 is the date the Jews celebrate regarding Abraham and his faith. March 25 is the date of the Incarnation, of which the Church celebrates…when God becomes Man through the Virgin…the two events connected.
There is the sacrifice of goats, lambs at the Temple…and only the High Priest was allowed to enter into the inner sanctuary of the Temple to sprinkle the sacrificial lamb’s blood on the altar…
Jesus participated in the Last Supper with the Melchizedekian gifts of bread and wine…the foretelling of the perpetual sacrifice about to begin…at the Passover…but no lamb was sacrificed and eaten at this supper because Christ was to become the sacrificial Lamb.
Christ’s chosing to come in the constellation of Aries the Ram was to signify not only this fulfillment of becoming the Sacrificial Lamb…but the universal message to all people and all history that He is the Messiah and Redeemer…and that His death would sanctify time…
When we live in the fullness of Christ, we are living in eternity now. We are living upon His Eucharist now…and He lives through us hidden and in a gentle way with no attention to ourselves but to the Lord alone.
We live for the Lord. He is our nourishment.
Christ came at the appointed time that the entire universal affirms and is constantly being renewed…and the Risen Christ drawing ALL men to Himself.
The only addition to our knowledge of Christ came at the Council of Nicea…to affirm He is of the same substance of the Father…Who Is…
Christ overcomes time. To believe in Moroni is to believe in a force that minimizes Christ and makes Him a failure…this is blasphemy.
Christ chose the time He wish to begin His ministry here on earth.
He was born during the time of the Constellation of the Ram
Do you know that when Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him, Abraham was thwarted by an angel to not go through with this sacrifice…
But that the angel pointed out to Abraham to sacrifice the ram that was caught in a bush…to represent that some day there would come the true Sacrifice of the Lamb.
March 25 is the date the Jews celebrate regarding Abraham and his faith. March 25 is the date of the Incarnation, of which the Church celebrates…when God becomes Man through the Virgin…the two events connected.
There is the sacrifice of goats, lambs at the Temple…and only the High Priest was allowed to enter into the inner sanctuary of the Temple to sprinkle the sacrificial lamb’s blood on the altar…
Jesus participated in the Last Supper with the Melchizedekian gifts of bread and wine…the foretelling of the perpetual sacrifice about to begin…at the Passover…but no lamb was sacrificed and eaten at this supper because Christ was to become the sacrificial Lamb.
Christ’s chosing to come in the constellation of Aries the Ram was to signify not only this fulfillment of becoming the Sacrificial Lamb…but the universal message to all people and all history that He is the Messiah and Redeemer…and that His death would sanctify time…
When we live in the fullness of Christ, we are living in eternity now. We are living upon His Eucharist now…and He lives through us hidden and in a gentle way with no attention to ourselves but to the Lord alone.
We live for the Lord. He is our nourishment.
Christ came at the appointed time that the entire universal affirms and is constantly being renewed…and the Risen Christ drawing ALL men to Himself.
The only addition to our knowledge of Christ came at the Council of Nicea…to affirm He is of the same substance of the Father…Who Is…
Christ overcomes time. To believe in Moroni is to believe in a force that minimizes Christ and makes Him a failure…this is blasphemy.
M
mtolympus
Guest
Yes, I think we all could do a better job of that both Mormon and Catholics.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I’m more convinced Smith made up his “visions”. He wouldn’t be the first, or the last to do so. As a Mormon you are required to believe his claims.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
M
mtolympus
Guest
There would be no reason to be a Mormon if one doesn’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.I’m more convinced Smith made up his “visions”. He wouldn’t be the first, or the last to do so. As a Mormon you are required to believe his claims.
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HonoraDominum
Guest
Ah, but see, any person can write these words. You just did. And I just copied them. To use the Book of Mormon as evidence that the Book of Mormon is true is simply not enough of an answer to justify the truth of the book. You are going by the assumption that there was an angel named Moroni and that he did appear to a man and give him golden plates. My belief system is different - that the book was written with non-divine supernatural assitance.
To further address the issue of the Truth of the Book of Mormon. It is either what it says it is, or it is not. Joseph Smith was either a prophet, or he was not. There’s no way that Joseph Smith was not a prophet but the Book of Mormon was still true. To find evidence of truth, one has to start with what one can physically see, hear, touch, sense or smell. From natural evidence, supernatural faith can form a foundation.
Faith plays strongly into any religion - anyone who believes that a priest can whisper words over a piece of bread, and that bread becomes a man, and that Man is God, has to take a huge leap of faith and trust in a church founded over 2,000 years ago. However, somewhere in the formation of any religion there has to be historical evidence if not theological truth for there to at least be the foundations of belief for most people.
One of the main problems that many ex-Mormons have about the Book of Mormon is the complete lack of archeological evidence that the book existed. Whether you believe that Christ was who he claimed he was, there is still archeological evidence that there was a man named Jesus Christ, and he did die, and he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. There is evidence of his early Church, and copies of ancient early manuscripts of the New Testament. But there is none for the Book of Mormon - no steel, no horse bones (horses are mentioned fourteen times in the Book of Mormon), not one piece of verified evidence that this huge civilization that spanned hundreds of years ever existed.
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mtolympus
Guest
John was speaking of spirits that appear to us not mortals living on earth.
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mtolympus
Guest
I didn’t say this proves the Book of Mormon is true or that it proves that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith. It only shows that if Moroni did actually apear to Joseph Smith, according to John, the angel was from God.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I have seen a handful of Catholics on this board express understanding of LDS baptism for the dead and appreciating the thought behind it, I’ve never seen an LDS poster show the same understanding towards a non-LDS view.
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HonoraDominum
Guest
But Koresh and many others of his ilk all say that some kind of supernatural entity (either “God” or “Jesus” or something similar) told them God’s will for them and their followers.
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