Ancient dieties or demons

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My Gods have been so good to me that I know They aren’t demons.
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your gods want you in hell. most people in hell didn’t believe in it or think they were going there. your gods are demons and they don’t want you to believe in them or the devil.

God’s essence is his existence or he who is and the devil’s essence is he who isn’t. evil is basically a rejection of reality or that God is everything and we are nothing.
 
polytheism is the result of purely human speculation about the relation of natural, observable phenomena to that which cannot be observed or explained by human senses and intellect, and attributes the latter to various deific persons or forces. Monotheism is the result of the Deity revealing Himself to those to whom He chose to impart this revelation, protect it, and teach it.
 
Heathen Dawn:
Polytheism was first, monotheism the newcomer; therefore the monotheist has the burden of proof. I hold to the beliefs of ancient people, unchanged, unchanged since the dawn of mankind, while you are innovators, deserters of the timeless Tradition of humankind. Monotheism bears the same relation to polytheism as does Protestantism to Catholicism.
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You’ve still yet to validate your opinion. There is not concrete evidence that substantiates the claim that monotheism did no coexist with polytheism. If that were the case, then I would agree, even further the notion that monotheism is an evolution of polytheism. But, this again is unsubstatiated. According to Hebrew tradition, belief in one all powerful creator God has existed since the dawn of time. Since you are posting to a Catholic Forum, your beliefs are the foreign ones. Therefore the burden of proof is on YOU, not anyone here. Our paradigm is the standard, at least here it is.
 
unchanged since the dawn of mankind, while you are innovators, deserters of the timeless Tradition of humankind.
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unchanged!? give me a break. if there is one definition of paganism is that it is constantly changing. there are no absolutes in paganism. it is only subject to the imagination of the individual. God by definition is unchanging as is his Word. the church hasn’t changed its message but has developed it more precisely in response to the changing times. the bottom line is i can show you a tradition that spans back at least to the time of Abraham whereas your faith has only superficial similarities with paganism of old. my faith has been handed down to me whereas yours is a fantasy. paganism is a joke.
 
oat soda:
your gods want you in hell.
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And who created hell? Your God. Sounds pretty demonic to me. Or this: “This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***…” A command to do genocide. When Hitler issue this, we call him the most evil person in history, but when the God of the Bible does, people praise Him and erect buildings in His name. How dysfunctional is the Abrahamic monotheists’ moral compass!

I’m off, I’m soaking too much of negative energies in here. It’s an unholy place. Just like most Christian discussion boards. Nothing like Christian discussion boards to feel totally separated from God. There’s nothing godly in this place, it is a spiritual desert. Find yourself a new Wiccan, like perhaps Justin of TheologyWeb, who can tackle your scurrilous charges against the Gods without feeling stabbed in the heart. I’ve got to go off this wasteland and grow spiritually.
 
I wasn’t aware of the other postings that Tlaloc had posted. Certainly don’t agree with them at all but I am certain I would not have ascribed his opinions to use of an ancient diety’s name.

Actually, the good brothers and sisters who taught me did do a fairly good job of catechizing (spelling?) me and while I was taught about the Greco-Roman pantheon (literature classes), I already knew about Tlaloc and Quetzalcoatl etc. because I have had a life-long interest in history and anthropology and I did read about all sorts of pantheons as a kid. Just as I knew Zeus/Hera et al were mythological beings, I knew Tlaloc/Quetzalcoatl were mythological beings. It never occurred to me to equate non-existant mythological dieties with Satan and his minions unless we were talking about the demonic deities mentioned in the Bible - e.g. Baal, Moloch.

I guess the question I was trying to raise is: Do we as Catholics automatically consign all ancient mythologies/pantheons as inherently demonic or do we attempt to understand that mythology/pantheon in the context of the culture in which it was developed. If they are all “demonic” why do we have historians, anthropologists, archaeologists etc. who study these ancient cultures?
 
Heathen Dawn. How sad. The sword of discernment is a two edged weapon which cuts both ways. I am trying to get a charitable discussion going and it seems we are automatically prediposed toward mud slinging. While I don’t believe in your gods, I am not going to cast you into brimstone. And for you other mudslingers…do you honestly think you will be able to convert the world using those methodologies?
 
Heathen Dawn:
I’m off, I’m soaking too much of negative energies in here. It’s an unholy place. Just like most Christian discussion boards.
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Heathen, you aren’t being fair here. Oat soda is not typical of the conservative Catholics on this board, let alone of everyone on this board, let alone of Catholics or Christians generally.

Certainly the ancient Christian belief was that pagan gods were daemons, whom Christians defined as evil beings, fallen angels according to late Jewish and Christian belief. That has never been dogmatized, however, and it’s not the view I hold. Nor am I convinced by the idea (present from the beginning and dominant among most modern Christians) that the pagan gods were/are wholly imaginary. I’m certainly open to the possibility that some beings worshipped as gods were thoroughly evil (i.e., demons), and to the possibility that some did/do not exist at all. But I’m rather intrigued by the idea that many, perhaps most of them did/do exist and are no more thoroughly good or thoroughly evil than humans are. In other words, that “gods,” like humans, exist as morally ambiguous beings who can make either good or evil choices. Over time, presumably such beings (like humans) would tend to become more unambiguously one thing or the other (either “demons” or “angels”). That’s just my theory, though there are some hints in the writings of C. S. Lewis that he believed something like this.

As for the passages you cite from the Bible, they bother me very much, frankly. I waver between two opinions–one is that God is God and has the right to kill whomever he wants (such actions are wrong on our part because we do not know who should live and who should die); the other that at times the Bible records what people believed God was telling them, but not necessarily what God actually wanted. When God Himself acts, I don’t have a problem with the first view. My problem with “genocide” passages like the one you describe is that they involve human agency which is allegedly sanctioned by God. Which is why I tend to lean toward the more “liberal” interpretation, although with some trepidation because I take the authority of Scripture very seriously.

I hope you don’t leave on account of a few people’s statements.

Yours truly,

Edwin
 
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brotherhrolf:
And for you other mudslingers…do you honestly think you will be able to convert the world using those methodologies?
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If conversion is on their mind, they are singularly ill suited for the task. It’s more likely that they either want to showcase their lack of empathy or presume to protect the flock from the worst danger of all - dissenting thought. Sort of like the border guards of a totalitarian regime 👍
 
Heathen Dawn:
And who created hell? Your God. Sounds pretty demonic to me. Or this: “This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***…” A command to do genocide. When Hitler issue this, we call him the most evil person in history, but when the God of the Bible does, people praise Him and erect buildings in His name. How dysfunctional is the Abrahamic monotheists’ moral compass!
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The inhabitants of the Promised Land were demon-worshippers and murderers of infants. The unholy maw of Moloch demanded death and suffering from his worshippers. Yahweh says unambiguously that the Israelites’ war against the Canaanites was a judgment on their sins:
Leviticus 18:24-28:
Defile not yourselves with any of these things with which all the nations have been defiled, which I will cast out before you, and with which the land is defiled: the abominations of which I will visit, that it may vomit out its inhabitants. Keep ye my ordinances and my judgments: and do not any of these abominations. Neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you. For all these detestable things the inhabitants of the land have done, that were before you, and have defiled it. Beware then, lest in like manner, it vomit you also out, if you do the like things: as it vomited out the nation that was before you.
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Does not the Creator possess the right to visit judgment on His creation?
Heathen Dawn:
I’m off, I’m soaking too much of negative energies in here. It’s an unholy place. Just like most Christian discussion boards. Nothing like Christian discussion boards to feel totally separated from God. There’s nothing godly in this place, it is a spiritual desert. Find yourself a new Wiccan, like perhaps Justin of TheologyWeb, who can tackle your scurrilous charges against the Gods without feeling stabbed in the heart. I’ve got to go off this wasteland and grow spiritually.
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You won’t grow spiritually by worshipping false gods. They are either figments of your imagination or, more likely, fallen angels who are intererested in dragging you down to hell with them. I’m not going to give you any platitudes or niceties about your false religion. Your gods may be real, but they are not any gods you ought to be worshipping.

The only place you will find spiritual peace is in the worship of the one true God and in His Church. I realize that the people who live here aren’t perfect and at times even nasty, but that is only because Christ turns away no man or woman, no matter how sinful, if only they are penitent. Moral perfection does not happen overnight, and we can’t expect it to, not in ourselves and not in others.

Christ died so that all might be saved, especially those who are far away from the true religion. This does not mean He will not allow many to fall into hell by their own choice against Him, but He has moved heaven and earth to let us in. Won’t you join us?
 
Heathen Dawn:
And who created hell? Your God. Sounds pretty demonic to me. Or this: “This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***…” A command to do genocide. When Hitler issue this, we call him the most evil person in history, but when the God of the Bible does, people praise Him and erect buildings in His name. How dysfunctional is the Abrahamic monotheists’ moral compass!

I’m off, I’m soaking too much of negative energies in here. It’s an unholy place. Just like most Christian discussion boards. Nothing like Christian discussion boards to feel totally separated from God. There’s nothing godly in this place, it is a spiritual desert. Find yourself a new Wiccan, like perhaps Justin of TheologyWeb, who can tackle your scurrilous charges against the Gods without feeling stabbed in the heart. I’ve got to go off this wasteland and grow spiritually.
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Just a comment please.
After reading Heathern Dawn’s post I would say that he is selfish. By that I mean if God doesn’t fit H.D.'s concept of how God should be, the H.D. turns away from God.
On God creating Hell. God is Just. If He made Heaven for the good souls, it wouldn’t be Just to put the evil souls in Heaven. So there had to be a place to put the evil souls - and God made Hell for them.
Lastly, if one thinks the prime motive of this Forum is to lead the nonbelievers to God, you have it wrong. This Forum is for Catholics to talk to each other.
 
On the concept of God “creating” Hell. hell is simply a place that is outside of God’s perfection. If you are not in God’s grace, you are “in” hell. The concept of being in or out is a manifestation of human’s desire to describe things as they relate to our physical senses, but heaven, per se, is a metaphysical place, i.e., you cannot find it on a map. You can’t point to a particular place and say “Heaven is here.” That being said, the same rule applies to Hell. People like to fantasize about Hell being a burning pit of fire at the center of the earth. That is a great metaphore, but the truth is that Hell is a place of eternal spiritual torment, the torment of knowing you will NEVER reside in the beatific presence of our Lord and Savior.
 
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