Ancient Jewish writings about the Trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter inJESUS
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This thread shows why the Zohar (the major part of the Kabbalah) is not to be studied by anyone underthe age of 40, and who is not Jewish.

The Zohar and the rest of the Kabbalah are written in HIGHLY mystical, esoteric codings, which nonJews and Jews not deeply steeped in Torah cannot truly understand.

This is why we have the unfortunate phenomenon of people like Madonna (not Jewish OR steeped in a full Torah background) claiming to be “into Kabbalah”.

In the Middle Ages, some Christians “discovered” the Kabbalah, and like those on this thread, felt it somehow “proved” their own religion of Christianity. Johannes Reuchlin was one such Christian.

I’m not going to bother explaining, step by step why the quotes mentioned do not speak of the Christian doctrine of a trinity. Its just not worth the time, quite frankly. It would be like trying to explain advanced calculus to people who only know basic math.

The Kabbalah is VERY complicated, VERY mystical and VERY confusing to anyone not well versed in Torah, Talmud and Jewish MYSTICAL thought.

BTW the Galilee was a very huge hotbed of Kabbalah study in the time of Jesus, and that explains why so much of what he said was highly mystical as well, since much of it came from the Kabbalah.

When he said much of what he did, he was speaking TO JEWS and who probably understood at least some of the mystical nuances of Kabbalah.

But the Kabbalah in uneducated hands is very dangerous because of the many ways it can (and has) been misunderstood.
 
To study Kabbalah and fully comprehend its many variances and nuances in interpretation (and its mystical codings), Jewish Law states that one must be:

Jewish and male (because women were usually considered too emotional to be able to grasp the deeper understandings)

Over 40

Married

WELL versed FIRST in Torah, Talmud and all other non-mystical teachings

This tells me that Jewish Law wants to make sure the person is as stable as possible, so as not to misunderstanding the teachings in their proper context, but also because Kabbalistic teachings, when misunderstood, can create serious emotional issues for the person who dabbles in them without the proper background and preparation.
 
R. Isaac Luria (1534-1572), began the study of Kabbalah when he was 17. (He died when he was 38). He was a biggie in world of Kabbalah. The age requirement is not followed by Sephardic Jews. Probably because the restriction of age was a Ashkenazi reaction to Shabbati Tzvei disasterous false messiahiship, which relied in a large part on kabbalistic teachings/beliefs.
 
I agree with both of you about the difficulty found in the Kabalah…that is why i said the link presents at least an easier language with regards to translation so i guess the translation is not the same…and i expeced to find the same in the link Valke2 gave me but it made things worse lol since there are too many words am not familiar with so i really cannot even comment.

However, from what i understood of some quotes, the Kabbalah refers to the Torah as the Word of God that created everything, and to the Sehekina (Holy Spirit) . This is exactly the theology of Trinity, which is Father, Word, Holy Spirit.
 
When the Shechinah said to the Holy One, blessed be He, “Let **us **make man”, they responded, “What is man that you take knowledge of him?” (Tehilim 144:3).
  1. Shmini : 1. Man was created by the Torah
    Verse 2. And man was created by the Torah, as it is written: “And Elohim said: ‘Let us make man’” (Beresheet 1:26), WRITTEN IN A PLURAL FORM. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to the Torah: ‘I wish to create man’. She replied: 'This man is destined to sin and provoke You. Unless You are long-suffering with him, how then shall he endure? And He replied to her: you and I shall maintain him in the world, for I am not called ‘long-suffering’ for no reason.
In Christian definition of the Word and Spirit, they are the essence of God, and not created things. What is the view of Judaism?
 
I looked up each of the primary souces at synagogue, and NOT one of them have the word “three” or number 3 in the text, that is something that was added by a christian author.

They were discussing Genesis 1:26, 3:22, and 11: 7.

The conclusions that was reached was either that God was addressing his attributes ( wisdom in proverbs 8 for example ) or that God was giving polytheists a reason to believe their false doctrine as a delulison or simply God was speaking to his heavenly court of angels.

None of those “Jewish” texts support the Trinity.

:rolleyes:

Also, in true Judaism one must be at least 40 years old to even read those documents.
 
  1. Rabbi Ya’akov said in the name of Rabbi Chiya: Ya’akov, the patriarch, is the Throne of Glory. And the teachings of Eliyahu also state: Ya’akov the patriarch is a Throne by himself, as it is written: “Then will I remember my covenant with Ya’akov” (Vayikra 26: 42). The Holy One, blessed be He, established a covenant with Ya’akov alone, more than THE COVENANT HE ESTABLISHED with all his fathers. He made him a Throne of Glory FOR HIS DIVINE PRESENCE TO REST UPON, distinguishing him from his predecessors. AND THE REASON IS THAT HIS FOREFATHERS, WHO ARE AVRAHAM AND YITZCHAK, ARE NOT ABLE TO SHINE WITHOUT HIM. THEREFORE, HE IN HIMSELF INCLUDES THEIR LIGHTS AS WELL AS HIS OWN, AND THUS BECOMES A THRONE TO HIMSELF.
kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/zohar&vol=6&sec=226#2077

This is the only passage where “divine presence” is used that I could find on that website.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
I looked up each of the primary souces at synagogue, and NOT one of them have the word “three” or number 3 in the text, that is something that was added by a christian author.

i contacted them about it…i’ll wait for their response…it’s good to always check…
They were discussing Genesis 1:26, 3:22, and 11: 7.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
At sometime there were polythesists who saw a council of gods in the “let us” phrases of genesis. They would selectly, quote the scriptures and ignore texts like, “hear oh …”. Also, there were times in Jewish polemics where trinitiarins were equated with being polythesists.

I found where Jeffrey Grant puts his argument together, at the link scroll down to the same title as this thread, It is my opinion that his “translations” are skewed, bent out of shape – that is why you are having a hard time finding his quotes. Below is another place where the zohar is located online.

grantjeffrey.com/article/chphnwr.htm

sacred-texts.com/jud/index.htm
 
HashemEchad said:
To study Kabbalah and fully comprehend its many variances and nuances in interpretation (and its mystical codings), Jewish Law states that one must be:

Jewish and male (because women were usually considered too emotional to be able to grasp the deeper understandings)

Over 40

Married

WELL versed FIRST in Torah, Talmud and all other non-mystical teachings

This tells me that Jewish Law wants to make sure the person is as stable as possible, so as not to misunderstanding the teachings in their proper context, but also because Kabbalistic teachings, when misunderstood, can create serious emotional issues for the person who dabbles in them without the proper background and preparation.
Click to expand...
sounds kinda like the Catholic Church teaching on Sacred Scriptures - kinda 🙂

when misinterpreted, can create Protestantism:eek:
 
HashemEchad said:
This thread shows why the Zohar (the major part of the Kabbalah) is not to be studied by anyone underthe age of 40, and who is not Jewish.

The Zohar and the rest of the Kabbalah are written in HIGHLY mystical, esoteric codings, which nonJews and Jews not deeply steeped in Torah cannot truly understand.

This is why we have the unfortunate phenomenon of people like Madonna (not Jewish OR steeped in a full Torah background) claiming to be “into Kabbalah”.

In the Middle Ages, some Christians “discovered” the Kabbalah, and like those on this thread, felt it somehow “proved” their own religion of Christianity. Johannes Reuchlin was one such Christian.

I’m not going to bother explaining, step by step why the quotes mentioned do not speak of the Christian doctrine of a trinity. Its just not worth the time, quite frankly. It would be like trying to explain advanced calculus to people who only know basic math.

The Kabbalah is VERY complicated, VERY mystical and VERY confusing to anyone not well versed in Torah, Talmud and Jewish MYSTICAL thought.

**BTW the Galilee was a very huge hotbed of Kabbalah study in the time of Jesus, and that explains why so much of what he said was highly mystical as well, since much of it came from the Kabbalah.

When he said much of what he did, he was speaking TO JEWS and who probably understood at least some of the mystical nuances of Kabbalah.**
But the Kabbalah in uneducated hands is very dangerous because of the many ways it can (and has) been misunderstood.
Click to expand...
I thought you subscribed to the polemic understanding of Jesus as being fictional…I guess your speaking hypotheticall. As if Jesus was in Galilee, then this is what He would have understood, and so on…
 
HashemEchad said:
**To study Kabbalah and fully comprehend its many variances and nuances in interpretation **(and its mystical codings), Jewish Law states that one must be:

Jewish and male (because women were usually considered too emotional to be able to grasp the deeper understandings)

Over 40

Married

WELL versed FIRST in Torah, Talmud and all other non-mystical teachings

This tells me that Jewish Law wants to make sure the person is as stable as possible, so as not to misunderstanding the teachings in their proper context, but also because Kabbalistic teachings, when misunderstood, can create serious emotional issues for the person who dabbles in them without the proper background and preparation.
Click to expand...
In other words, one who would never interpret the combined writings in any way other than Jewish. To see examples of this, visit www.chabad.org and search the word Tanach. The first response should be The Judaica Press Complete Tanach with Rashi. I am not saying that as a religious people they are not entitled to do so, only that they do. Much the same way as it is in Mormonism, Protestant denominations that promote singular ideas-Pentecostal, 7th day, etc.

Enjoy the Tanach as translated by devout Jews, but don’t forget to click show Rashi for interesting insight. For those who study ancient texts, note the major difference in the translation of the last sentence of Bereishit 1:5 as compared to the Christian understanding.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
At sometime there were polythesists who saw a council of gods in the “let us” phrases of genesis. They would selectly, quote the scriptures and ignore texts like, “hear oh …”. Also, there were times in Jewish polemics where trinitiarins were equated with being polythesists.

I found where Jeffrey Grant puts his argument together, at the link scroll down to the same title as this thread, It is my opinion that his “translations” are skewed, bent out of shape – that is why you are having a hard time finding his quotes. Below is another place where the zohar is located online.

grantjeffrey.com/article/chphnwr.htm

sacred-texts.com/jud/index.htm
Click to expand...
When the Shechinah said to the Holy One, blessed be He, “Let us make man”, they responded, “What is man that you take knowledge of him?” (Tehilim 144:3).
  1. Shmini : 1. Man was created by the Torah
    Verse 2. And man was created by the Torah, as it is written: “And Elohim said: ‘Let us make man’” (Beresheet 1:26), WRITTEN IN A PLURAL FORM. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to the Torah: ‘I wish to create man’. She replied: 'This man is destined to sin and provoke You. Unless You are long-suffering with him, how then shall he endure? And He replied to her: you and I shall maintain him in the world, for I am not called ‘long-suffering’ for no reason.
is the writer polytheist?
 
MementoMori3283 said:
I thought you subscribed to the polemic understanding of Jesus as being fictional…I guess your speaking hypotheticall. As if Jesus was in Galilee, then this is what He would have understood, and so on…
Click to expand...
I believe one (or more) character (s) like Jesus existed, but as for a specific person, I have trouble believing it due to the lack of historical and archaeological evidence.

But the Galilee was a major Kabbalah center in the time when Jesus is said to have lived, and I have found striking examples of things he is purported to have said (in the NT), as well as things in Revelation, that sound as if they were taken right out of the Zohar.

Also, there were things in the NT that I never fully grasped until I studied Kabbalah. For example, in Jewish mysticism, there is the science of gematria, which means finding hidden meanings in the numerical value of the Hebrew letters.

This is what is meant in Rev 13:18 when it speaks of letting him who has understanding count the number (code) of the man, for his number is six hundred, threescore and six (666).
 
HashemEchad said:
Also, there were things in the NT that I never fully grasped until I studied Kabbalah. For example, in Jewish mysticism, there is the science of gematria, which means finding hidden meanings in the numerical value of the Hebrew letters.

This is what is meant in Rev 13:18 when it speaks of letting him who has understanding count the number (code) of the man, for his number is six hundred, threescore and six (666).
Click to expand...
can you elaborate please? can you determine, by gematria, what is meant by 666?
 
inJESUS said:
can you elaborate please? can you determine, by gematria, what is meant by 666?
Click to expand...
This is an academic dilemma I’ve actually been in for a while now! The people who would know best how to figure it out, care least (Orthodox rabbis.)

And the people who care most (Christians) really don’t know how to do it!

My best guess is that it refers to the Roman emperor Nero, because the numbers of his name in Hebrew add up to 666. But according to Revelation, its supposed to be someone in the future, right?
 
HashemEchad said:
I believe one (or more) character (s) like Jesus existed, but as for a specific person, I have trouble believing it due to the lack of historical and archaeological evidence.

But the Galilee was a major Kabbalah center in the time when Jesus is said to have lived, and I have found striking examples of things he is purported to have said (in the NT), as well as things in Revelation, that sound as if they were taken right out of the Zohar.
Also, there were things in the NT that I never fully grasped until I studied Kabbalah. For example, in Jewish mysticism, there is the science of gematria, which means finding hidden meanings in the numerical value of the Hebrew letters.

This is what is meant in Rev 13:18 when it speaks of letting him who has understanding count the number (code) of the man, for his number is six hundred, threescore and six (666).
Click to expand...
Again, the New Testament was written by the members of the Catholic Church, who have their origins in Judaism:cool:
 
HashemEchad said:
This is an academic dilemma I’ve actually been in for a while now! The people who would know best how to figure it out, care least (Orthodox rabbis.)

And the people who care most (Christians) really don’t know how to do it!

**My best guess is that it refers to the Roman emperor Nero, because the numbers of his name in Hebrew add up to 666. But according to Revelation, its supposed to be someone in the **future, right?
Click to expand...
actually, both and, the middle

Scholars have long pointed to Nero, but the beauty of Scripture and it’s divine inspiration is that like God, Scripture transcends time. In this way, there is meaning for the person whenever they should happen to read. 2000 yrs ago, 1000, or today.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top