Ancient worshiping of idols

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

All throughout Holy Scripture, when the worship of idols in mentioned, it seems to imply that pagans actually believed that their deity would become present in the object that they fashioned. Let me clarify: for example, say a Roman fashioned some bronze statue of some god of the home, did he believe that that god was actually present in the statue? Or did the Jews misunderstand what was going on, and in fact the pagans held a belief more in line with how we understand icons?

 

[kepha1]

The Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God’s original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God.
If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god. The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods.

The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

Ther pagan view of where their god resides, in or out of a statue, I rally cant answer.

 

[kepha1]

The Scripture is very specific about what constitutes an idol. It is the image of a creature (bird or animal) that is worshipped as a god. One has to look at when the Law was given to the people to find the clue as to God’s original meaning. The Hebrew had been rescued from Egypt by God.
If you look closely at the ten plagues for instance you can see that each plague represented the destruction of the gods of Egypt. By bringing the plagues upon Egypt God was showing that He was mightier than any human understanding of a god. The Hebrew had been affected by these gods in Egypt and in their hearts they wanted to continue to follow these gods.

The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

Ther pagan view of where their god resides, in or out of a statue, I really cant answer.

 

[NHInsider]

I don’t think you can say “all pagans believed x” because there was clearly variation among different peoples and also changes in belief over time. Northern European tree-worshippers believed there were spirits actually in the trees. By the time of Alexander, Greeks placed statues in temples but believed that the gods lived on Olympus and occasionally toyed with humans, earlier variations of their beliefs probably located the gods within the objects and forces they were associated with (eg Apollo’s chariot=the sun).

The Golden Calf incident is telling in several ways - when Aaron made the calf and erected it, he said to the Israelites “here is your god who brought you out of Egypt” - not only indicating that the statue itself was the god, but ascribing to it the very act of power by which God had demonstrated His identity as “their God” to them. Then, when Aaron is making excuses to Moses, he claims that the calf formed itself magically, again ascribing power to the object. And finally, the celebration around the calf included all kinds of self-indulgent behaviors which were directly contrary to the demands of purification that God set for the Israelites when He told them how they were to approach Him or worship Him.

 

[crazzeto]

From Gen 31:

26 And he said to Jacob: Why hast thou done thus, to carry away, without my knowledge, my daughters, as captives taken with the sword. 27 Why wouldst thou run away privately and not acquaint me, that I might have brought thee on the way with joy, and with songs, and with timbrels, and with harps? 28 Thou hast not suffered me to kiss my sons and daughters: thou hast done foolishly: and now, indeed, 29 It is in my power to return thee evil: but the God of your father said to me yesterday: Take heed thou speak not any thing harshly against Jacob. 30 Suppose thou didst desire to go to thy friends, and hadst a longing after thy father’s house: why hast thou stolen away my gods?

This is very clear, Rachel’s father clearly believed that his gods were literally stolen (he thought by Jacob, but by Rachel her self). This ties in with the ancient Jewish practice of animal sacrafice. God never demanded any such thing until they left Egypt, the reason why is when they were in Egypt they started worshiping cows, sheep and lambs just like the Egyptians. God made them sacrafice these beasts to prove a point, if you can kill it, it aint God.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I have often wondered if the Greek myth did not actually see the gods as actually existing.

They could have actually believed and taught their myth through allegory.

We know that some of the Greeks believed that number exists outside our mind.

Did they also think that power, wealth, fame, glory, music poety and such exist extramentally; and the myths were allegorical explanations of the actual gods.

Oh, it is just a thought.

It is the esoteric and exoteric teachings.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

The Book of Wisdom, ch. 13 and 14, has a great explanation of idols.

Book of Wisdom 13

Book of Wisdom 14

 

[losh14]

The history of Israel is full of examples of the apostasy of Israel as it fell into this form of idol worship and was punished for doing so. The Golden Calf incident was an attempt by the Hebrew to worship the false gods that they had left behind in Egypt. Before the Golden Calf incident the Hebrew did not have to offer animal sacrifices, yet after that incident they had to do so. Why? Because God wanted to make sure that the Israelites were forced to renounce animal worship.

I’ve never made that connection before but it is brilliant. I had often thought that animal sacrifice, common among pantheistic pagan entities, was continued under Mosaic Law as a way of God reaching the Israelites where they were. “Okay, you understand devotion as having to give up a prized animal. Fine, let’s start with you sacrificing to me, instead of those other Gods.” This understanding of devotion changes over time, so that by Isaiah we have “Is this not the fast I desire? Fast from the bonds of oppression”. Ultimately, the blood sacrifices were allowed because God knew the plan of Salvation, and the sacrifice of Christ, which would bring blood sacrifice to an end once and for all.

 

[losh14]

I don’t think you can say “all pagans believed x” because there was clearly variation among different peoples and also changes in belief over time. Northern European tree-worshippers believed there were spirits actually in the trees. By the time of Alexander, Greeks placed statues in temples but believed that the gods lived on Olympus and occasionally toyed with humans, earlier variations of their beliefs probably located the gods within the objects and forces they were associated with (eg Apollo’s chariot=the sun).

You make a good point - there are animists who see mana as existing everywhere but not necessarily in a personal form. There are pantheists, who see deities personified though remote. I think we monotheists take it a step further in pursuing a personal and often emotional relationship with our God.

It’s also telling where divine power is located. For animists, it is in natural objects - a tree, bones, land itself. When we get to Scripture we see some relic of this in 2 Kg 5:17 when Naaman, in showing devotion to the God of Israel, asks for two cartloads of mud, reflecting a Semitic belief that a deity has power in the land of its people.

For pantheists, the divine power can be concentrated in the persons of the deities - though we still see remnants of animism at times. Note that Greek mythology reflects this kind of syncretism - the Olympian deities were masters of their domains but certain places (such as Delphi) held powers outside of their grasp that derived from somewhere else.

For us Christians (and monotheists in general) divine power can take several forms (ie, Grace, Intervention, Providence, Charism) but all begins and returns to the Lord.

Which brings us to an interesting coincidence - we see in Scripture where human beings convey divine power - Elisha’s bones (2 Kg 13:21) brought a dead man back to life, and Paul’s handkerchiefs exorcised demons (Ac 19:11-12). The explanation given is that these are conduits for Grace of one form or another, and this leads to the Catholic and Orthodox practice of venerating the relics of saints. An outside viewer would take this veneration to be animism - seeking divine power in an object as source of that power, while the correct understanding is that the divine power only uses the object as conduit.

 

[Thomas_B_1]

From Gen 31:

This is very clear, Rachel’s father clearly believed that his gods were literally stolen (he thought by Jacob, but by Rachel her self). This ties in with the ancient Jewish practice of animal sacrafice. God never demanded any such thing until they left Egypt, the reason why is when they were in Egypt they started worshiping cows, sheep and lambs just like the Egyptians. God made them sacrafice these beasts to prove a point, if you can kill it, it aint God.

And Leah then holds onto them Genesis 31:34 when Laban comes back for the idols; then she sadly dies during the childbirth of Benjamin.