Ancients in Revelation 4

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Who are these ancients around the throne?
I thought the 12 apostles are supposed to be around the throne of God as seen in iconography .
Bishop barron calls them priests here at the 8:00 mark.


Later in 5:8 , how do we know those prayers are those of saints on earth and not their prayers? Thanks!
 
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They are priests, they are called presbyters, which is where we get the English word priest.
Revelation 4
The apostles WOULD be priests, and in Revelation 5:8, it might be helpful to read in context. I’ll tell you what, keep this thread going, and I will get back to you tomorrow.
 
Thanks Adam, ok i might sound really silly but it just came to me that mary magdalene is not an apostle , i alway thought she was one.
 
Ok im at rev 8:4 , i dont quite get it yet , for it seems the prayers ascend the same from earth and from before the alter.
 
Mary of Magdala was a follower of Jesus. Apostle is a word that has a specific meaning “to be sent”. Jesus would not send a woman on this quest. And it is not because HE somehow looked down on women, rather think about it, He specifically told His Apostles what the cost would be. They all died horrible deaths except John.
Any way the Apostles were also our first Bishops and consequently priests also.
Peace!
 
John uses the language to convey what he perceives in the vision.
Our prayers ascend to GOD from us here on Earth. In Heaven the prayers also “ascend” to GOD since even though in the presence of GOD no one can be at HIS level.
John uses the metaphor of the smoke from incense that ascends.
Peace!
 
anon91549587 said:
Who are these ancients around the throne?
I thought the 12 apostles are supposed to be around the throne of God as seen in iconography .
Bishop barron calls them priests here at the 8:00 mark.

Later in 5:8 , how do we know those prayers are those of saints on earth and not their prayers? Thanks!
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First of all -
Barron became very controversial because of his comments re: Hell, Sin, Judgement, Salvation
which stand at a very long distance from the solid Teachings of Christ and the Catholic Church

And I quote.

“My own view, having surveyed this grand tradition, my own view is that Balthasar has it pretty much right. I think that God desires all people to be saved. God has gone to the limits of God-forsakenness to effect this salvation. Can it be resisted? Yes, and that’s why we have to hold to the existence of Hell, at least as a possibility.”

“We have to accept the possibility of Hell. We have to accept the existence of it as a possibility because of human freedom. But, are any human beings in Hell. We don’t know. We don’t know. The Church has never declared on that subject. And we may pray that all be saved, and may even reasonably hope that all be saved…. It’s a theologically-grounded reasonable hope that all will be saved.”

“Bottom line: we may reasonably hope that all people will be saved.”
 
Are you catholic ? You sound very protestant based off what i read from your arguments.
 
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What does this have to do with the OP question? Are you implying that Bishop Barron can’t be trusted to explain anything because of one thing that he’s said in the past?
 
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EndTimes : Scriptures tells a different story…

Porthos11 : The original plan was that all of Israel should be priests (Exodus 19:6). However, all of Israel fell into worshipping the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain. It was the Levites who rallied to Moses’ side and killed three thousand of their fellow
 
anon91549587 said:
it just came to me that mary magdalene is not an apostle , i alway thought she was one.
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JerryZ said:
Mary of Magdala was a follower of Jesus. Apostle is a word that has a specific meaning “to be sent”. Jesus would not send a woman on this quest.
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Just a quick note on Mary of Magdala : while it is true that she never was part of the Apostles, she is often called “Apostle of the Apostles”, because she was the first witness of Christ’s resurrection, which He sent her to announce to the disciples. This is maybe what causes possible confusions.

This is also the reason why her day, July 22, was recently (2016) elevated from an obligatory memorial to a feast, like the Apostles.
JerryZ said:
And it is not because HE somehow looked down on women, rather think about it, He specifically told His Apostles what the cost would be. They all died horrible deaths except John.
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Many female saints died horrible deaths as martyrs too – even though, according to tradition, it wasn’t Mary of Magdala’s case 😉
 
Stephen_says said:
Are you implying that Bishop Barron can’t be trusted to explain anything because of one thing that he’s said in the past?
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No… I would never say that Barron cannot speak accurately on some things…
At the least you’ve seemingly acknowledged that what he said in the past - is Controversial…

From a perhaps unacceptable stretched ‘theological’ pov …
but Scriptures offers overwhelming evidences against it

Even Revelations argues against it . (see below)

My comment on Barron’s opinions re: Hell and Salvation connects with what is seen
as supportive of some known False “theology”
  • which gravely argues
- No Punishment, No Judgement, No Hell … Ergo - All shall be Saved.
which stands at a very long distance from the solid Teachings of Christ and Church

…

Moving along - I’ll offer critiques of - and Scriptural mistakes in - that Vid

Just So that we’re clear: The One who holds the “Key of David” is not King David
It’s Jesus - Son of God…

To theologically paint Adam as the first king - and then long-jump from Adam to David?

Adam is never referred to in any Catholicism manner - as being a king…

Adam and Eve were not asked to “Till the Soil of The Garden of Eden”
FOR - they were Expelled from Eden for committing The Original Sin!

It was Eve and not Adam who listened to the Serpent. … Adam listened to Eve…

The Sentence connected with Satan’s synagogue and Jews receives no mention

WE - Including Jesus - are the Temple of God…

Jesus - Son of God - places no undue focus upon being David’s Son.

And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David’s.
He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:
The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
And no man was able to answer him a word

Selections from Rev

’To the angel of the church at Philadelphia write:
So this is what I will do: I will make those of Satan’s synagogue, who claim to be Jews but are lying frauds, come and fall down at your feet; and they shall know you are my beloved people.

Rev 21 on who goes to the New Jerusalem

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
 
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First off I want to apologize if my comment came of as attacking you, I think I could have worded it better.

I do agree that what he said was controversial, but I guess I was confused by your comment because you said
EndTimes said:
First of all -
Barron became very controversial
Click to expand...
But then you didn’t answer or even acknowledge the OP’s question, it seemed like you were just here to bash Bishop Barron lol 🤷‍♂️ If my interpretation is incorrect, please correct me.
 
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EndTimes said:
Adam and Eve were not asked to “Till the Soil of The Garden of Eden”
FOR - they were Expelled from Eden for committing The Original Sin!
Click to expand...
Maybe not Eve, but Adam was told to do it before they were expelled; even before God formed the beasts and brought them to Adam to name.
Gen. 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.
Just So that we’re clear: The One who holds the “Key of David” is not King David
It’s Jesus - Son of God…
Click to expand...
As Bishop Barron clearly said!
 
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EndTimes said:
I did not post what I have for the purpose of ‘bashing’ Barron per se … keeping one’s eyes out for promised false shepherds
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+Barron has clarified his position on the nature of hell ad nauseam: he affirms its existence and that some will be sent there accordingly at both the particular and universal judgement. This is a useful article clarifying his position.

+Barron is not a false shepherd nor does he teach apostasy.
 
Gen 1:28 וּרְד֞וּ shows his dominion and kingship.

Gen 2:15 לְעָבְדָ֖הּ (work) וּלְשָׁמְרָֽהּ׃ (guard) Adam was meant to guard it like a priest at the temple . Numbers 3:7-8

Gen 3:4 “you” is in second person plural , implying Adam was there but kept silent committing the sin of omission.
 
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