"And also with you" Gesture

[LilyM]

Small, short bows over and over.

Aww, it sounds so much fun when you call it shorkling :bounce: I plan to shorkle my way through the Creed next Sunday (seeing as how I never can remember when the bow is meant to start )

 

[netmilsmom]

Aww, it sounds so much fun when you call it shorkling :bounce: I plan to shorkle my way through the Creed next Sunday (seeing as how I never can remember when the bow is meant to start )

Atta girl!
You can’t miss that bow if you shorkle!

 

[dessert]

I hope you don’t mean what it sounds like you mean. Sisters cannot say Mass. A communion service can only be done by a lay person or religious if a deacon or installed acolyte is unavailable. I have heard the “unity” argument before, and unless they are referring to unity with the entire church, the argument fails. It doesn’t matter if everyone inside the parish church is doing the same thing if it is the wrong thing to begin with!

Our priest really does like everyone doing the same thing. Do you think this is a controlling issue? And it seems like we are not doing anything wrong but things seem more relaxed when he is gone. Do you think there should be a little more freedom? I’m talking more when the actual liturgy is going on like the prayer time and the consecration. When he is gone we don’t get all wild it just seems more less drama or uptightness like he is watching us all the time and he does I even close my eyes and it seems like he is still watching but then I soon get lost in my prayer to the Lord so I forget about him, the priest I mean. Unity is a kind of confusing word to me maybe you could expand on this?Tanks

 

[4HisChurch]

It’s sad that so many are so willing to emulate the Protestant gestures, but shun the Catholic gestures such as genuflecting at the words of the incarnation. Same with the gestures of the Priests and those serving at the altar. In the Traditional Mass, for instance, whenever Jesus’ name is mentioned, everyone turns toward the tabernacle and bows, and Priests and seminarians remove thier berettas as they bow. Also, each and every time anyone passes in front of the tabernacle, they genuflect. There is absolutely no doubt that we are there to worship Christ who is present in the most special way in the Eucharist.

Excellent point! Why import gestures that are not traditionally Catholic, while throwing out those that are?

 

[prv]

The Eucharistic Sacrifice is intrinsically directed to the inward union of the faithful with Christ through communion. Individual participation of the sacrifice, especially prayers and gestures, could be classified as cultured behavior handed down from our parents, our parish and growth in our religious formation. Most gestures and prayers become involuntary reflexes and for some cherished con-celebration of the sacrifice with the priest. Some purpose moderation and some strict compliance with the General Instruction of the Missal. The holding of the hands during the Our Father however, may approach on ones individual space, preference, and distract him/her from the Mass. When one imposes their hand on you, that person provides a situation of acceptance or rejection of the gesture. This can become an awkward moment for both (if rejected); which could be considered a lack of charity by both members. IMHO

A lack of charity on the part imposing their hands on you exclusively, provided you do not rip out their hands or punch them for doing so; if it is not approved by Church authority, it cannot be imposed on you in this context. Nor can it be argued that this is a lawful custom since there are those who lawfully refuse to participate in this gesture. Finally, the laity do not “concelebrate” the Mass with priests; they only participate in its celebration—the Mass is perfectly valid w/o laity or even deacons; w/o a priest it cannot, in the slightest stretch of the word, be claimed to have occurred.

 

[pnewton]

This can become an awkward moment for both (if rejected); which could be considered a lack of charity by both members. IMHO

I agree, even though I wish this practice would be addressed by the Church so that we can put it aside and move on (or not). I believe most here handle the situation you describe with grace, yet it still can be misinterpreted as snootiness. There are others, though, that come across as liturgical fascist and the only word I can think of that describes them is “mean.”

I would have to think it is far better to flip a hand over, hold a hand or do a lippy thing innocently, than with willful pride look down on a brother or sister in the Lord with anger for it.

PS - netmil(name removed by moderator), I have always appreciated your balance in this, even when we don’t agree.

 

[netmilsmom]

PS - netmil(name removed by moderator), I have always appreciated your balance in this, even when we don’t agree.

Thank you so much. It’s actually hard to not argue for the other side as well sometimes. No one should be uncomfortable in the liturgy. We can all be accomodated if we try.

That was my home parish in Cleveland. A great Irish pastor (God rest his soul) who believed that all the parishioners should have a home. Our 9:00am mass was the historic one and the 10:30 was the innovative one. When we found the time was inconvenient for the one we liked, there was no pushing to force our fellow parishioners to like what we were doing. When we were the odd one out, we knew that we had our own option still there. We had great parish picnics where everyone got along. And the funny thing is, I normally attended the innovative Mass!

But moving to Detroit and finding nothing but modern parishes pushed me over the edge. I thank Our Lord everyday for leading me to my parish.

And as I say to NCJohn, you hit the innovative mass and I’ll attend the historical mass then we’ll meet for donuts in between!

Bless you!

 

[ncjohn]

Thank you so much. It’s actually hard to not argue for the other side as well sometimes. No one should be uncomfortable in the liturgy. We can all be accomodated if we try.

That was my home parish in Cleveland. A great Irish pastor (God rest his soul) who believed that all the parishioners should have a home. Our 9:00am mass was the historic one and the 10:30 was the innovative one. When we found the time was inconvenient for the one we liked, there was no pushing to force our fellow parishioners to like what we were doing. When we were the odd one out, we knew that we had our own option still there. We had great parish picnics where everyone got along. And the funny thing is, I normally attended the innovative Mass!

But moving to Detroit and finding nothing but modern parishes pushed me over the edge. I thank Our Lord everyday for leading me to my parish.

And as I say to NCJohn, you hit the innovative mass and I’ll attend the historical mass then we’ll meet for donuts in between!

Bless you!

Thanks Net. I couldn’t agree more!

And I’ll even join you at your mass at lot of the time. I would love to be able to receive communion as you do in your church.

And afterwards we can discuss the proper way to hold one’s donut when dunking–or not dunking…

 

[netmilsmom]

And afterwards we can discuss the proper way to hold one’s donut when dunking–or not dunking…

 

[dessert]

Small, short bows over and over.

I have just realized that our priest does the shorkling but I had never heard it called that before and he does bow quite a bit. it is very obvious. When I was little I used to nap with my cousins and one cousin would sit up and rock himself to sleep and I would lie and watch him and fall asleep watching him that is why this shorkling is bugging me so much it is putting me to sleep. After reading this thread it made me realize this. We had a visiting priest one day the trouble ours was also there, not really a problem a nice blessing but ours was shorkling and the other was gesturing with open arms. There are visitors to our church that say we are dramatic and much less routine than theirs. But anyways I am learning alot from these threads even if it seems to oyhers that we are stereotyping things somewhat. i’d rather have it that way. The shorkling reminds me of the way the jews pray by rocking back and forth to each other and to God I rather thinks it gets them in the mood and maybe calms down the spirit for meditation. Yeah I am a rocker ha! Desert,return

THE LORD IS MY STRENGTH AND MY SHIELD;
MY HEART TRUSTED IN HIM AND I AM HELPED;
THEREFORE MY HEART GREATLY REJOICES,
AND WITH MY SONG I WILL PRAISE HIM PSALM 28;7 NKJ

 

[Tabitha]

I don’t understand what the big deal is? It’s just a gesture to the priest to wish him and his spirit peace in return.

 

[palmas85]

I don’t understand what the big deal is? It’s just a gesture to the priest to wish him and his spirit peace in return.

Yes, but it is not prescribed, necessary or even desirable. Some do it, some don’t, some are extreme , others subtle. I say if it is not in the rubrics then we should not do it. Very simple. We should not be making up gestures as we go along.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I have a question about a gesture during Mass. Some people around me lift their hands toward the Priest when they say: “And also with you,” after the “Peace be to you.” Is this correct?

And the “profound bow” during the Nicene Creed? Our priest so slightly bows, that if I hadn’t been looking for it I would have missed it, and I don’t see anyone else modeling it. In my family I’m the only one doing an almost to the waist bow.

It’s a little difficult being a baby Catholic. You’re not sure who to follow! After reading here, I see that our congregation needn’t hold hands during the Our Father and then lift those held hands even higher during the ending. But our church does.

I have a little habit of making a slight bow with “and Also with…” I make a more pronounced Bow during the Creed. Our Bishop and visiting priests are the only other people I notice bowing during the Creed.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Yes, but it is not prescribed, necessary or even desirable. Some do it, some don’t, some are extreme , others subtle. I say if it is not in the rubrics then we should not do it. Very simple. We should not be making up gestures as we go along.

Is it in the rubrics that people bring their hands together when they say Amen? Is it in the rubrics that we cross ourselves when receiving the blessing from the Priest after the Act of Penance? Is it in the rubrics that people are to cross themselves after receiving Communion? Is it in the rubrics that people bless their head (mind), lips (words they speak), and chest (heart) prior to hearing the Gospel?

 

[LilyM]

Is it in the rubrics that people bring their hands together when they say Amen? Is it in the rubrics that we cross ourselves when receiving the blessing from the Priest after the Act of Penance? Is it in the rubrics that people are to cross themselves after receiving Communion? Is it in the rubrics that people bless their head (mind), lips (words they speak), and chest (heart) prior to hearing the Gospel?

The crossing at the Gospel is indeed specified for the congregation in the rubrics. And the sign of the cross (and the bringing of the hands together) are common gestures appropriate for any occasion of prayer and any person to use at any time. I, for example, cross myself at the elevation of the host and the chalice at the consecration.

The ‘and also with you’ gesture is NEITHER specified in the rubrics NOR one that is in common use at other times during prayer.

 

[Nordar]

I don’t understand what the big deal is? It’s just a gesture to the priest to wish him and his spirit peace in return.

It is a big deal if we are not supposed to be doing it, It is just a gesture, So it is just OK to bounce a ball in church? I know that sounds extreme but that’s how things start. We just can’t add stuff that is not supposed to be there and say Oh it;s no big deal yes it is, if it is not in The Rubics.

 

[palmas85]

Is it in the rubrics that people bring their hands together when they say Amen? Is it in the rubrics that we cross ourselves when receiving the blessing from the Priest after the Act of Penance? Is it in the rubrics that people are to cross themselves after receiving Communion? Is it in the rubrics that people bless their head (mind), lips (words they speak), and chest (heart) prior to hearing the Gospel?

I’m not 100% sure, not having an up to date Missal handy, but I believe that the rubrics do call for the signing prior to the Gospel, I may be wrong on that though. Crossing after the Act of Penance, in the Mass is not in the rubrics, ditto for crossing after communion and as for bring their hands together when saying amen, I’ve never personally seen that one, but since it is not in the rubrics, no it should not be done.

The rubrics do call for strking of the breast during the confeitor though, and hardly anyone does, and it also call for a profound bow during the Creed, which is also seldom done.

So in response, yes, if those gestures are not in the rubrics, we should not be doing them. Very simple indeed.

 

[Tabitha]

It is a big deal if we are not supposed to be doing it, It is just a gesture, So it is just OK to bounce a ball in church? I know that sounds extreme but that’s how things start. We just can’t add stuff that is not supposed to be there and say Oh it;s no big deal yes it is, if it is not in The Rubics.

Obviously it’s not the same thing. Obviously bouncing a ball wouldn’t be reverent. I do the “also with you” gesture and have done it since first coming to a Catholic Mass because it just feels like something I’m supposed to do. Like smiling back when someone smiles at me.

 

[netmilsmom]

Obviously it’s not the same thing. Obviously bouncing a ball wouldn’t be reverent. I do the “also with you” gesture and have done it since first coming to a Catholic Mass because it just feels like something I’m supposed to do. Like smiling back when someone smiles at me.

You are not suppose to add any posture or gesture to the liturgy. It doesn’t matter how you feel, it isn’t suppose to be done.
If I feel that laying prostrate on the ground or shorkling for the Our Father feels right, those gestures would not be allowed either.

 

[netmilsmom]

Is it in the rubrics that people bring their hands together when they say Amen? Is it in the rubrics that we cross ourselves when receiving the blessing from the Priest after the Act of Penance? Is it in the rubrics that people are to cross themselves after receiving Communion? Is it in the rubrics that people bless their head (mind), lips (words they speak), and chest (heart) prior to hearing the Gospel?

All of the above gestures are precribed for the laity in other Vatican documents. The “small sign of the cross” is also directed for the gospel according to the USCCB

“Gestures too involve our bodies in prayer. The most familiar of these is the Sign of the Cross with which we begin Mass and with which, in the form of a blessing, the Mass concludes. Because it was by his death on the cross that Christ redeemed humankind, we trace the sign of the cross on our foreheads, lips and hearts at the beginning of the Gospel.”
usccb.org/liturgy/girm/bul3.shtml

Where is the directive for the for this innovate gesture?