And he is Clear; the Fool

[simplynoone]

In Ecclesiastes 10:3 it says, “Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool.”

What then are we to make of the following?

I Corinthians 4:10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised."

2 Corinthians 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also."

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

2 Corinthians 12:11 **I am become a fool **in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

And then, the one that really is disgraceful… as though God has ANY foolishness in Him… absolutely the wrong choice of words, no?

I Corinthians 1:25 Because*** the foolishness of God*** is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

It seems this is against everything in which the Tanakh teaches:

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

That he so blatantly speaks in opposition to what is in the Tanakh, it does worry me for many of you. That perhaps you were intentionally led away from the Truth… certainly, it should be clear that you weren’t led toward it under Paul’s teachings, right?

Of course, Psalm 92:6b.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

There is a difference between being perceived as a fool (and admitting that one’s actions might be seen as foolish) and actually being a fool

 

[geometer]

Paul was probably influenced by Socrates who said; ‘A wise man considers himself to be a fool.’

 

[simplynoone]

There is a difference between being perceived as a fool (and admitting that one’s actions might be seen as foolish) and actually being a fool

First of all, thank you for the reply. Do you not find it foolish that he said the “foolishness in God…?” That seems to be the wrong choice of words, don’t you think? Thus, I would think that is enough to consider Paul as one who did indeed speak foolishly… which he did blatantly admit his own self.

I find God to be brilliant in His creation… His ways… His judgments!! I can’t seem to find anything foolish in Him that would warrant saying, “the foolishness in God…” It seems to be only a statement made by a foolish person who did not truly care for the ways of God, ya know?

And clearly it states in Ecclesiastes that the Fool will announce Himself… so, shouldn’t this be a warning for us all?

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

First of all, thank you for the reply. Do you not find it foolish that he said the “foolishness in God…?” That seems to be the wrong choice of words, don’t you think? Thus, I would think that is enough to consider Paul as one who did indeed speak foolishly… which he did blatantly admit his own self.

I find God to be brilliant in His creation… His ways… His judgments!! I can’t seem to find anything foolish in Him that would warrant saying, “the foolishness in God…” It seems to be only a statement made by a foolish person who did not truly care for the ways of God, ya know?

And clearly it states in Ecclesiastes that the Fool will announce Himself… so, shouldn’t this be a warning for us all?

Yes, brilliant… but also often counterintuitive- it is only through dying, after all, that we can have eternal life. How foolish would that seem to Paul’s contemporaries?

 

[simplynoone]

Paul was probably influenced by Socrates who said; ‘A wise man considers himself to be a fool.’

Well then, surely the one who said of Plato’s Sacrates… “an idol, a master figure of Greek Philosphy. A Saint, a prophet of the ‘Sun-God’…” only confirmed that Paul, though he may have been Jewish by birth, was truly of a greek mindset. (since what we know of Socrates mostly comes from Plato).

That Paul’s view of Jesus resembled that of the greek demigods and that his philosophies echoed those of the Greek mindset, it only goes to show that the Greek views are where he constructed his version of Jesus from, no?

 

[RedSoxFan]

No, I would say that it shows us that he knew how to talk to the Greeks to convert them.

 

[simplynoone]

Yes, brilliant… but also often counterintuitive- it is only through dying, after all, that we can have eternal life. How foolish would that seem to Paul’s contemporaries?

Honestly? I find it silly to say that one will have eternal Life after death. Eclessiastes 9:10 is clear what is in store for us. Eternal Life is God… that we are in the presence of Eternal Life does not conclude that when we die, we will gain eternal Life our ownselves… the conclusion is simple… we die and cease to exist… as we were not before we were born, so shall we not be again when we die (I personally don’t see the reason so many fear this). I also don’t see the logic in the kind of thinking that claims life can be found in death… it makes no sense to me. I find it truly foolish thinking really… and the Tanakh does not promote such “lack of” thinking. Again… that is my view based on the Tanakh. I know the NT speaks otherwise… but the Tanakh is what I subscribe to (which the NT is claimed to be founded on… and yet they are so contrary to one another… there is no reconciling the two opposing views… unless by foolishness).

 

[simplynoone]

No, I would say that it shows us that he knew how to talk to the Greeks to convert them.

Converting them to what though? From their point of view back to… well… their point of view? It wasn’t the Jewish point of view they were being coverted to. shrugs

This is what I don’t understand. The view of Jesus that Paul taught is the same view they had of demigods already.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Saying that the Christ Paul converted greeks towards was the same as the demi-gods and Gods that they already worshipped is way too simplistic and inaccurate.

Christ is clearly different from the Greek gods in how he was worshipped and the conversion process that was required of the young Christians.

 

[RedSoxFan]

And I’m going to guess that your Jewish given your outlook. Let me know if I am wrong. Either way welcome to the forums.

 

[geometer]

This is what I don’t understand. The view of Jesus that Paul taught is the same view they had of demigods already.

Paul really did not teach the things that Jesus taught. Paul had very opposite views most of the time. When a crowd was hungry Jesus would feed them with a miracle. Paul said; ‘those who do not work do not eat’…

 

[Benadam]

In Ecclesiastes 10:3 it says, "Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool

 

[geometer]

Paul’s foolishness is divine wisdom as it accomplishes it’s end. That’s why it is rejected.

Theosophy promoted by Paul was largely drawn from Kabbalah.

 

[simplynoone]

And I’m going to guess that your Jewish given your outlook. Let me know if I am wrong. Either way welcome to the forums.

I put this kind comment first just to let you in on a little secret… I prefer the discussions here as opposed to other religious forums… though our views are as different as night is from day, that you all are willing to be civil and actually discuss these issues is TRULY appreciated ( I get bored with other forums for often it seems as though I am dealing with children rather than discussing with adults). Anyway, thank you for the kindness.

Oh… and no, not yet… your guess about me being Jewish, that is. Though, I do take the Jewish points of view rather than the christian’s points of view (though it is what I was raised in… which might explain my obsession with it still shrugs). Believe it or not, it was Ezekiel 16 that brought me to see the Gorgeous ways of God and the Gorgeous relationship between the People, Israel, and God. That’s right… one of the greatest chapters of the Tanakh used by others to point out the faults of Israel is the very chapter that made me fall so in love with them and in fact, it made me understand why God would fall so in love with them. Absolutely Gorgeous, no?!!

Saying that the Christ Paul converted greeks towards was the same as the demi-gods and Gods that they already worshipped is way too simplistic and inaccurate.

Christ is clearly different from the Greek gods in how he was worshipped and the conversion process that was required of the young Christians.

So as to not make false assumptions, are you using Christ to mean the Messiah as it is stated in the Tanakh or are you using it in reference to one man, aka Jesus? I will reply to this when you clear this up for me… I would hate to reply as though you were speaking against the Hebrew Scriptures.

My view? Christ is the Greek term for “Messiah” which = the anointed… and should ANYONE wonder who the anointed, the Messiah is… it is so clearly stated in the Tanakh that NO ONE should be claiming that it is ONE man, but rather the People, Israel!! One example of it being clearly stated who the anointed, the Messiah is? Psalm 105: 6-15… it is Israel… the suffering SERVANT (Isaiah 53… I have already shown on this forum how the same descriptions are listed elsewhere in the Tanakh with the Name Israel next to them)… anyway… the Servant is named in Isaiah 49:3.

Is your view the same as what is stated in the Tanakh or is it the view of Christians… just to be clear how it is I am to reply ?

 

[simplynoone]

Paul really did not teach the things that Jesus taught. Paul had very opposite views most of the time. When a crowd was hungry Jesus would feed them with a miracle. Paul said; ‘those who do not work do not eat’…

So, what is your view? Which one do you agree with? Be sure to consider ALL points of view before answering. I would hate to blindside you with a position that only a fool would overlook.

ONE of these men was speaking to Life and the other was speaking to Death… which was which? Hmmm?

 

[simplynoone]

The fool’s wisdom fails him because it is rejected by all but himself.
Paul is called a fool by the world the fool in ecclesiastes calls the world a fool.

Gosh! Pardon me then… I thought these writings were said to be of Paul and not of the world:

2 Corinthians 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also."

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

2 Corinthians 12:11 **I am become a fool **in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

What is it that you base your claim of these writings being of the world and not of Paul … for I am pretty sure that most agree it is written by Paul?? I am always open though to hearing other views.

I Corinthians 1:20… well, given your first point I quoted above, I guess you WOULD agree with Paul. God is foolish. After all, it is Judaism that the world considers foolish for the majority have run to the two religions that have stepped on the gorgeous Jews and used them and THEIR WORD FROM THEIR ANSCESTORS AS catalysts for their own religions… and yet… well, there is much to say, even now, who it is the “hand” of God is with (the ones who have been and are being stepped on).

How could y’all? Really? :imsorry:Not that I don’t think what went around is not about to come back around… it ALWAYS DOES… but it doesn’t HAVE to be this way ya know. The Truth could be recognized from the goodness of hearts that I DO know are still there in the world. All it would take is for US all to see WHAT IS THERE in front of all of our eyes. The Jewish obviously are not a Vengeful People… not like others have been toward them and still are. They are the Messiah to the World… why can’t we just SAY IT out loud what it is said in their Scriptures that we ALL have been mooching off of (and WHO WOULDN’T want to be included in what is inherently theirs… this is understandable… it is truly gorgeous)!! Still… what is going on even after 2,000 years… well… it just seems like stealing at this point.

 

[Benadam]

Gosh! Pardon me then… I thought these writings were said to be of Paul and not of the world:

2 Corinthians 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also."

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

2 Corinthians 12:11 **I am become a fool **in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

What is it that you base your claim of these writings being of the world and not of Paul … for I am pretty sure that most agree it is written by Paul?? I am always open though to hearing other views.

I Corinthians 1:20… well, given your first point I quoted above, I guess you WOULD agree with Paul. God is foolish. After all, it is Judaism that the world considers foolish for the majority have run to the two religions that have stepped on the gorgeous Jews and used them and THEIR WORD FROM THEIR ANSCESTORS AS catalysts for their own religions… and yet… well, there is much to say, even now, who it is the “hand” of God is with (the ones who have been and are being stepped on).

How could y’all? Really? :imsorry:Not that I don’t think what went around is not about to come back around… it ALWAYS DOES… but it doesn’t HAVE to be this way ya know. The Truth could be recognized from the goodness of hearts that I DO know are still there in the world. All it would take is for US all to see WHAT IS THERE in front of all of our eyes. The Jewish obviously are not a Vengeful People… not like others have been toward them and still are. They are the Messiah to the World… why can’t we just SAY IT out loud what it is said in their Scriptures that we ALL have been mooching off of (and WHO WOULDN’T want to be included in what is inherently theirs… this is understandable… it is truly gorgeous)!! Still… what is going on even after 2,000 years… well… it just seems like stealing at this point.

Anyone who prefers life in sin are of the world. When glimmers of heavenly life touch the earth the worldly always respond with hate and rejection. They are the fool in ecclesiastes calling everyman a fool.

Of course the Jews understand this dynamic. All their prophets experienced being a fool for God. All of them from Abel to John, are a pattern of the life of one man. An image built on the echo of the pattern lived by Adam and the reflection of the one they are waiting for.

Jesus was a rabbi that didn’t possess a teaching but was himself the teaching. He spoke with authority; “It is written’ Jesus would start, then; 'But I tell you” This was not how rabbi’s spoke. Jesus revealed Himself as the Torah. This is what was so upsetting for the well to do Jewish folk. Central to them is the community and that is structured on the Torah. The very thing that the Jewish people hoped in for everlasting life, the structures of society built on the law of Moses, Jesus was teaching ( it must have seemed to them) them to abandon.

I have a love for the Jewish people to. How can I not feel a brotherly bond with those who revealed the God of Abraham? My God.

 

[RedSoxFan]

I put this kind comment first just to let you in on a little secret… I prefer the discussions here as opposed to other religious forums… though our views are as different as night is from day, that you all are willing to be civil and actually discuss these issues is TRULY appreciated ( I get bored with other forums for often it seems as though I am dealing with children rather than discussing with adults). Anyway, thank you for the kindness.

Oh… and no, not yet… your guess about me being Jewish, that is. Though, I do take the Jewish points of view rather than the christian’s points of view (though it is what I was raised in… which might explain my obsession with it still shrugs). Believe it or not, it was Ezekiel 16 that brought me to see the Gorgeous ways of God and the Gorgeous relationship between the People, Israel, and God. That’s right… one of the greatest chapters of the Tanakh used by others to point out the faults of Israel is the very chapter that made me fall so in love with them and in fact, it made me understand why God would fall so in love with them. Absolutely Gorgeous, no?!!

So as to not make false assumptions, are you using Christ to mean the Messiah as it is stated in the Tanakh or are you using it in reference to one man, aka Jesus? I will reply to this when you clear this up for me… I would hate to reply as though you were speaking against the Hebrew Scriptures.

My view? Christ is the Greek term for “Messiah” which = the anointed… and should ANYONE wonder who the anointed, the Messiah is… it is so clearly stated in the Tanakh that NO ONE should be claiming that it is ONE man, but rather the People, Israel!! One example of it being clearly stated who the anointed, the Messiah is? Psalm 105: 6-15… it is Israel… the suffering SERVANT (Isaiah 53… I have already shown on this forum how the same descriptions are listed elsewhere in the Tanakh with the Name Israel next to them)… anyway… the Servant is named in Isaiah 49:3.

Is your view the same as what is stated in the Tanakh or is it the view of Christians… just to be clear how it is I am to reply ?

Hey Simplynoone,

Just looking really quick at your post before I head off to mass. I’m guessing that by the time I get a minute or two to write out a response this thread will be much further along. In that case I’ll send a pm to you so that we can continue to talk.

Anyways till then. Laters!

~RSF

 

[simplynoone]

Anyone who prefers life in sin are of the world. When glimmers of heavenly life touch the earth the worldly always respond with hate and rejection. They are the fool in ecclesiastes calling everyman a fool.

oh… okay, I think I see where you are coming from. No worries, I can understand that and am willing to pull up some passages that show the passive approach as well. Have you read in Ezekiel the verse that is describing the scroll with words that are written both within and without? You understand the implication of what I am trying to point out here, no? If not, let’s consider some more, shall we?

Hey, what is it you consider sin? I am of this world ya know. I was born in this world and not another, so I am a bit confused why you would say anyone who prefers life in sin is of this world. We are all of this world. I think quite often “experience” gets mislabeled “sin.” …and with this in mind:

Considering the take of the verse that you gave, well, you have furthered peaked my interest in what you are labeling “sin” in your above quote.

Of course the Jews understand this dynamic. All their prophets experienced being a fool for God. All of them from Abel to John, are a pattern of the life of one man. An image built on the echo of the pattern lived by Adam and the reflection of the one they are waiting for.

I think the testimonies of the prophets in the Tanakh are brilliant! I think the whole Tanakh, in fact, is brilliant. Why do you say they are “fools” for God? God said He established the world in wisdom… I rather agree fully. I am so curious as to why you see it otherwise… calling those who He used to bring forth His Word “fools.”

Jesus was a rabbi that didn’t possess a teaching but was himself the teaching. He spoke with authority; “It is written’ Jesus would start, then; 'But I tell you” This was not how rabbi’s spoke. Jesus revealed Himself as the Torah. This is what was so upsetting for the well to do Jewish folk. Central to them is the community and that is structured on the Torah. The very thing that the Jewish people hoped in for everlasting life, the structures of society built on the law of Moses, Jesus was teaching ( it must have seemed to them) them to abandon.

What I highlighted in the red above is quite a part of the brilliance that I see Jesus was trying to enlighten His own to. Take some time to really read Jeremiah. The whole idea behind this is, I can’t stress enough, brilliant. The Word of the LORD is said in the testimonies to be the everlasting God… truly it is what will save the People.

I have a love for the Jewish people to. How can I not feel a brotherly bond with those who revealed the God of Abraham? My God.

While I can not judge you and can only take you at “your word”… I am curious if you be so brave as to answer some questions for me.

If this was it… this life… and there was nothing more, what then for your feeling of a brotherly bond to the Jewish? Let’s even say that you were to be cast into “hell” for what you label sin (assuming yours is the typical view of sin, surely you have not and are not fully free from … only thus far, you have rather convinced yourself in your mind that you are free from the guilt)… anyway, let’s say you were cast into the hell that is said by most Christians to be where those who don’t believe the doctrines of Christianity will be cast… if there was no way out in your mind (meaning, you don’t have the picture of a Jewish man suffering and dying for you in your mind’s eye), would you still feel that love? What if you KNEW you would have no part of what it is that belongs to the Jewish… their inheritence? Would you be able to genuinely still feel glad in your heart seeing them receive it knowing you had to keep your hands to your ownself?

Would God still be your God if you knew we would stand in judgment for the sins we, as the non jewish, have committed against this People (hijacking the Truth and twisting it throughout history to fit whatever agenda suits the moment for us)? Just curious…

… If you’d rather not answer the last of this reply, I do fully understand and won’t even blame you for choosing not to.