And now a brief musical interlude

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So there I was at mass today (I was visiting another parish in a different town than mine because of work), and during the gospel reading the piano player starts up with some elevator music. Nothing too loud, but it still seemed kinda weird. I looked around, and everyone was acting like this was the most normal thing in the world. OK. This goes on for a bit, then the priest pauses, and the choir starts singing a song that seemed to relate to the reading. Again I looked around, again everyone is acting normally. The song stops, the priest continues his reading, and the music starts to fade. OK, we’re past that (whatever that was), I think to myself, but just then, just when I thought it was safe, the music starts again, then the pause in the reading, then the singing…. This happened three times. Hmmm….

Is this normal? Has anyone else out there experienced this?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
 
Ha, ha!

That sounds like an abuse to me.

A funny picture, though, I must admit.

As a Protestant, there was often someone strumming a guitar in the background of prayers (I guess it was for emotional effect).
 
At the local Calvary Chapel, when the preacher goes on too long or gets off subject the guitars start strumming and the band starts lightly playing. This eventually forces the preacher to stop and they can get on with the praise music. This is common in my local Calvary Chapel because the head preacher can talk and talk, going from his good old days sermon to his rants against homosexuals.
(he is a good speaker, but can get quite involved in his speeches)

Sometimes choirs take that saying, “when you sing you pray twice” of Saint Augustine and make it gospel, so they feel that the choir drives the Mass.

Music is important as long as it points to God, but when it becomes the focus or something that overpowers the focus it can cause problems.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Not normal. Not acceptable.

There is a time for everything in the liturgy. The gospel should not be accompanied by any form of instrumental music, but may (indeed is preferred to) be chanted, for added solemnity.

There is no mention of this form in the rubrics. The gospel should not be accompanied and should certainly not become responsory in nature.
 
I dont know if serious abuse, but I for one, would find it distracting.
 
SPQR said:
So there I was at mass today (I was visiting another parish in a different town than mine because of work), and during the gospel reading the piano player starts up with some elevator music. Nothing too loud, but it still seemed kinda weird. I looked around, and everyone was acting like this was the most normal thing in the world. OK. This goes on for a bit, then the priest pauses, and the choir starts singing a song that seemed to relate to the reading. Again I looked around, again everyone is acting normally. The song stops, the priest continues his reading, and the music starts to fade. OK, we’re past that (whatever that was), I think to myself, but just then, just when I thought it was safe, the music starts again, then the pause in the reading, then the singing…. This happened three times. Hmmm….

Is this normal? Has anyone else out there experienced this?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
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This is another example of something that at one time was suggested from an “academic sense”. As with anything, there is a huge difference between “in theory” and “in practice”.

David Haas took the academic idea and devised a complete script for it, complete with acclamations to help the assembly “take ownership” of the Gospel. Now this was not an “evil” idea; rather, the intention was quite noble.

Unfortunately, we now know that this practice is not licit. It therefore should not be encouraged.
 
Same thing here…except be thankful for one thing…at least YOUR priest is reading the Gospel. Ours sits and listens as lay people read the Gospels during Lent.

As for the elevator music…I’ve been tempted more than once to place a tip jar on the piano during Lent…maybe our liturgy coordinator would get the hint that there’s a difference between liturgical and lounge music.
 
Elzee said:
Same thing here…except be thankful for one thing…at least YOUR priest is reading the Gospel. Ours sits and listens as lay people read the Gospels during Lent.

As for the elevator music…I’ve been tempted more than once to place a tip jar on the piano during Lent…maybe our liturgy coordinator would get the hint that there’s a difference between liturgical and lounge music.
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This is a serious violation of Redemptionis Sacramentum, which clearly states:
[63.] Within the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, the reading of the Gospel, which is “the high point of the Liturgy of the Word”,139 is reserved by the Church’s tradition to an ordained minister.140 Thus it is not permitted for a layperson, even a religious, to proclaim the Gospel reading in the celebration of Holy Mass, nor in other cases in which the norms do not explicitly permit it.141
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What you have witnessed is a very serious abuse that should be brought to the pastor’s immediate attention, with the above-quoted section from RS as a reference.

It is most disturbing, going back to the OP, when people decide to make the Mass “more interesting” by inserting some creativity into the Holy Sacrifice. Far from it being a noble intent, it shows a very poor understanding of what the Mass truly is.
 
I think the tip jar sounds good, however bringing this up-charitably-with the priest sounds good, too. It may have been a one time thing that was the idea of an overzealous but sadly misled music director, however voicing your concern might be helpful - with all respect, of course.
 
benedictgal said:
This is a serious violation of Redemptionis Sacramentum, which clearly states:

What you have witnessed is a very serious abuse that should be brought to the pastor’s immediate attention, with the above-quoted section from RS as a reference.

It is most disturbing, going back to the OP, when people decide to make the Mass “more interesting” by inserting some creativity into the Holy Sacrifice. Far from it being a noble intent, it shows a very poor understanding of what the Mass truly is.
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What part of my post didn’t you understand when I said it’s not licit? Or that it shouldn’t be encouraged? I’m assuming you were referring to me when you said “far from it being a noble intent …”

Why is everything an oh-so-dramatic, “serious” abuse that must be brought to the attention of the pastor, the bishop, the papal nuncio …

Well, the fact is, I can’t “know” the hearts of the people who suggested it. Maybe they are blackened and filled with evil. Maybe it was their desire to pervert the Holy Sacrifice.

But I don’t believe that. I happen to believe that they had the best of intentions. Unfortunately, the practice is still not allowable.

As such, it should not be done.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
This is another example of something that at one time was suggested from an “academic sense”. As with anything, there is a huge difference between “in theory” and “in practice”.

David Haas took the academic idea and devised a complete script for it, complete with acclamations to help the assembly “take ownership” of the Gospel. Now this was not an “evil” idea; rather, the intention was quite noble.

Unfortunately, we now know that this practice is not licit. It therefore should not be encouraged.
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David Hass has a website devoted to him HERE No he is not evil…but I do believe it is time for the Church to move on…away from him. His stuff is dated and everytime I hear on of his songs I am taken back to my Catholic youth of the 70s and 80s…and the banality of the whole era
 
THurifer2 said:
David Hass has a website devoted to him HERE No he is not evil…but I do believe it is time for the Church to move on…away from him. His stuff is dated and everytime I hear on of his songs I am taken back to my Catholic youth of the 70s and 80s…and the banality of the whole era
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Agree for the most part.

Although - he has a few good ones, and if I can tolerate a piece and the people will sing it, that is often the best solution.

But overall - yeah, much of his stuff isn’t so great. I’d love to “move on” from most of it too.
 
I don’t know about David Haas, I kinda like his music. It is good if I take my kids fishing, or to listen to around a campfire. That type music sounds nice in the woods.

I am pretty traditional bent also, (just look at my posts) but I can appreciate the efforts of many people.

There is a time and place for most everything.

God Bless
Scylla
 
How do I raise this issue with my priest in a charitable manner (that he should be reading the gospel, no lounge music, no congregation musical responses…).

Any suggestions? I would think my pastor’s first reaction will be - 'who the heck are you to be telling me how the Mass should be done…I’ve been doing this for decades". .

Any ideas on a charitable and diplomatic approach/wording?
 
Elzee said:
How do I raise this issue with my priest in a charitable manner (that he should be reading the gospel, no lounge music, no congregation musical responses…).

Any suggestions? I would think my pastor’s first reaction will be - 'who the heck are you to be telling me how the Mass should be done…I’ve been doing this for decades". .

Any ideas on a charitable and diplomatic approach/wording?
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Get a copy of Redemptionis Sacramentum and the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. You can download these at www.adoremus.org by clicking the Documents button.

Then, write a letter to your pastor citing the appropriate sections of both documents that list the violations. Do not get emotional, just stick to the facts.

Hope this helps.
 
Elzee said:
How do I raise this issue with my priest in a charitable manner (that he should be reading the gospel, no lounge music, no congregation musical responses…).

Any suggestions? I would think my pastor’s first reaction will be - 'who the heck are you to be telling me how the Mass should be done…I’ve been doing this for decades". .

Any ideas on a charitable and diplomatic approach/wording?
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Your instincts are probably correct. Imagine if someone came to your job with a text book from the library about your job and started quoting it and pointing out things you were doing differently than from the book! What would YOUR reaction be?

All the same, it is true that the most recent documents DO explicitly forbid any music underneath presidential texts, including the gospel. I might point out that prior, this issue was not specifically defined. Contrary to popular opinion, silence is neither condemnation nor endorsement - it is silence.

I would begin by asking him about the practice: Whose idea was it? If it was the Pastor’s, get ready for things to go south! Probe a bit in a friendly manner, then gently broach the subject that you heard that it may be against the most recent documents. See what he says and take it from there.

I will tell you this - Benedictgirl like it or not - If you go in there waving something from Adoramus and begin by telling him that you KNOW this practice to be wrong, the conversation will be over. Adoramus is looked at in our circles as militant and dissenting. In our church, I remove anything from the book racks that people leave that is from FutureChurch, Call to Action, or Adoramus. Sorry. They are in the same boat as Call to Action and FutureChurch as far as I’m concerned - and I think most of my colleagues (as well as many priests) agree. I’m sorry if that angers you, offends you, or you think I’m just full of it. I’m just telling you how it is.

You have a valid point and you are correct that this practice is not right. Don’t make him shut you off because of how you approach him or because of the references you provide to support your point.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
Your instincts are probably correct. Imagine if someone came to your job with a text book from the library about your job and started quoting it and pointing out things you were doing differently than from the book! What would YOUR reaction be?

All the same, it is true that the most recent documents DO explicitly forbid any music underneath presidential texts, including the gospel. I might point out that prior, this issue was not specifically defined. Contrary to popular opinion, silence is neither condemnation nor endorsement - it is silence.

I would begin by asking him about the practice: Whose idea was it? If it was the Pastor’s, get ready for things to go south! Probe a bit in a friendly manner, then gently broach the subject that you heard that it may be against the most recent documents. See what he says and take it from there.

I will tell you this - Benedictgirl like it or not - If you go in there waving something from Adoramus and begin by telling him that you KNOW this practice to be wrong, the conversation will be over. Adoramus is looked at in our circles as militant and dissenting. In our church, I remove anything from the book racks that people leave that is from FutureChurch, Call to Action, or Adoramus. Sorry. They are in the same boat as Call to Action and FutureChurch as far as I’m concerned - and I think most of my colleagues (as well as many priests) agree. I’m sorry if that angers you, offends you, or you think I’m just full of it. I’m just telling you how it is.

You have a valid point and you are correct that this practice is not right. Don’t make him shut you off because of how you approach him or because of the references you provide to support your point.
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Just who is “our circles”, PGA? They are not on the fringe as CTA or FutureChurch. They rightly point out some major deficiencies in things and have consistently supported the efforts of the Holy See in curbing abuses and restoring the Ordinary Form of the Mass to its correct manner. Furthermore, if Cardinal Arinze recognizes them and has gone so far as to bless their offices, then, they do have some legitimacy.

I provided these links because they have an impressive library and the documents are easily accessible. Cutting and pasting onto a letter citing both RS and GIRM is sufficient. The Adoremus website makes finding things a lot easier.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
Adoramus is looked at in our circles as militant and dissenting. In our church, I remove anything from the book racks that people leave that is from FutureChurch, Call to Action, or Adoramus. Sorry. They are in the same boat as Call to Action and FutureChurch as far as I’m concerned - and I think most of my colleagues (as well as many priests) agree.
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Wow. What “circles” are those? I am honestly baffled to see Adoremus lumped in together with CTA and FutureChurch. How does Adoremus dissent? It promotes sacred liturgy! It asks (and tries to answer) tough questions about the state of the modern liturgy. It provides by-the-book answers. How is this dissension!? It’s one of the most orthodox Catholic publications I know of. I’m seriously confused here.
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
I will tell you this - Benedictgirl like it or not - If you go in there waving something from Adoramus and begin by telling him that you KNOW this practice to be wrong, the conversation will be over. Adoramus is looked at in our circles as militant and dissenting. In our church, I remove anything from the book racks that people leave that is from FutureChurch, Call to Action, or Adoramus. Sorry. They are in the same boat as Call to Action and FutureChurch as far as I’m concerned - and I think most of my colleagues (as well as many priests) agree. I’m sorry if that angers you, offends you, or you think I’m just full of it. I’m just telling you how it is.

You have a valid point and you are correct that this practice is not right. Don’t make him shut you off because of how you approach him or because of the references you provide to support your point.
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WOW, lumping Adoremus together with Call to Action – a group promoting sacred liturgy according to the Vatican documents vs a group that wants to redo the Church. I’m not sure Vatican would agree with you. Adoremus is only radical for those who want to do their own thing.

Adoremus is the best place to go for references because they have all the documents online and it’s often the first site that pops up when you google a specific item. While a printout from that site will have Adoremus ot the top of the page, the document below that is the same as the one from the Vatican website.
 
With regard to Elizee’s question, I agree that going in with the suggested documents would probably not be the best way to handle this. She’d be running in trying to fix something that she likely doesn’t fully understand.

Elizee, if you really think this needs addressing, if you really think he’s leading people away or somehow denigrating the holy sacrifice of the mass (and from what you’ve written, the part about the laity reading the gospel concerns me the most), I’d suggest speaking with the pastor about this directly. Just a conversation about intention though, not a discussion of the rules. Ask him why he’s doing this, and discuss with him your concerns once he has laid out his thoughts. If I had to guess, I’d predict he’s doing this out of some folksy notion about including the participation of the laity in the mass that he probably picked up in seminary 20 or 30 years ago, and may be really trying to reach out to people and draw them in, in which case your discussion with him about how that just isn’t working and why would be much more useful than presenting him with the rules.

To my thinking, going to the rules is the option of last resort, as it means that I was unable to reach an agreement with the person from first principles and shared interests. It reflects, to me, a failure to connect. Now, if other methods haven’t done it, if you haven’t been able to discuss this and come to an agreement, resorting to the rues is what must be done, but I’d really suggest holding that option in reserve.
 
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