And now the abuse report from Poland

  • Thread starter Thread starter angel12
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This is wrong, but even if we err on the conservative side and say 400 priests were accused (instead of the actual number, 382) and say that there’s a priest in Poland, including religious orders, for every 2 parishes, making a total of 5000 priests serving 10000 parishes, then you have 400/ 5000 = 8 percent.

We need to get it to zero percent, but the conclusion based on my conservative estimate remains that 4600 priests, well over 90 percent, have not been accused of any abuse…and the actual number of priests in Poland since 1990 is likely to be higher than the conservative estimate I made, which would drive the percentages lower.

Nobody is ever going to run a headline that says, “90% of priests in Poland were never accused of sexual abuse” though.
 
Last edited:
Pedophiles are generally only 5% of the general population so is that something we can be proud of? No. And if you are saying that 10% of priests are sexual offenders, then that is double the general population! I don’t think Catholics have anything to be proud of in saying that only 10% of their priests have been accused of sexual abuse.That is still a huge amount of children being molested!

I understand your point, that we need to focus on those who are not offenders because there are many good and holy priests, but we must never diminish the evil that has occurred by quoting statistics and saying how good they are! Priests are supposed to be holy and trustworthy and responsible, so children have been taught to trust them more than just any man in the general population.This is a severe betrayal of all that the Church stands for. Let us not minimize the impact of this betrayal.
 
I did say we need to get it to zero percent.
However, the issue is that many non-Catholics I meet think virtually every priest is a pedo.
The news stories are presented to give that impression.
And if you challenge the impression being left, you’re told you’re “minimizing the problem”.
I think that’s grossly unfair.
The news would not give that impression of certain other groups perceived as oppressed because people would call them out on unfairness, but it’s “okay” to trash the Catholic Church and smear all the good priests. I don’t think so.

Regarding the numbers, I bent over backwards to make my estimate very conservative. I’m willing to bet the actual real life percentage is closer to the average for society than my estimate. If the news was doing its job they would be giving exact percentages so I wouldn’t be sitting here trying to estimate them.
 
Last edited:
I have posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating. The problem is more than a few pedophile priests. Yes, there are many more good and holy ones than pedophiles, but the cover-ups and denials have caused those few pedophiles to move from parish to parish, continuing their abuses and crimes on child after child after child until the victims number in the hundreds in just one city alone! The news stories present the information in a way that reflects the shock that non-Catholics feel about a supposedly good and holy institution allowing such horrible crimes to go on for decades without doing anything about it except hide it. One can hardly blame them for that. Even non-Catholics had a sort of awe of the Church and the priests until all of this evil came crawling out from under a rock.
In my mind, the only way to deal with it effectively is with a sincere and hearty ‘mea culpa’ by all involved in not only the child abuse, but in the cover-ups. there is still far too much denial going on within the Church about just how evil this whole thing is. I understand that it is hard to accept, especially for Catholics, but denial is only going to cause more outrage. This is something the Church ‘should’ be ashamed of, to stand up and accept responsibility and to seek out practical solutions to the problems. Only then can she get beyond it. Not every priest is a pedo, but the hierarchy knew about the ones who were, and did the worst thing they could possibly do about it - moved the offenders to someplace where they could offend again. Unfair or not, that’s the facts.
 
I think the party line of it’s not that many and yes it’s bad but look at all the good is starting to not be believed by many who have been saying it. While it’s important to know that God will not abandon His Church, the Catholic Church, it can equally be said this is much worse than people seem to want to see. As a parent that concerns me. As a Catholic it outright scares me.
 
Hoosier-Daddy said:
I think the party line of it’s not that many and yes it’s bad but look at all the good is starting to not be believed by many who have been saying it. While it’s important to know that God will not abandon His Church, the Catholic Church, it can equally be said this is much worse than people seem to want to see. As a parent that concerns me. As a Catholic it outright scares me.
Click to expand...
Yes. I used to talk about percentages and how it’s not as bad as the media makes it sound. But now I’m so angry, deeply angry, at the Church hierarchy. And I see all around me the signs that others are deeply angry, too. Normally our parish attendance dips over the summer and rebounds in mid-September; it never rebounded this year. Of course the diocese and the parish would never consider that maybe those people who stopped coming had gotten discouraged by the latest scandals (McCarrick earlier in the summer, PA grand jury report in mid-August) exposing the depth of the rot in the Church. And so the institutional Church continues on as it always has, having its fish fries and the bishops’ annual appeals and everything else, while failing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f697bb75bf52 – This appeared in the Washington Post and was syndicated in a bunch of newspapers nationwide, including ours. We got a homily last weekend about how if we withhold money from the bishop’s appeal, we’d be withholding money from the needy. That totally misses the point of the op-ed as well as the author’s proposed solution – Thiessen suggests donating directly to Catholic charities serving the poor. More to the point, it’s insulting. It basically tells the laity, you have no right to be concerned about these scandals and no right to withhold your money, so shut up and pay up.
 
emilysue . . . .
We got a homily last weekend about how if we withhold money from the bishop’s appeal, we’d be withholding money from the needy. That totally misses the point of the op-ed as well as the author’s proposed solution – Thiessen suggests donating directly to Catholic charities serving the poor. More to the point, it’s insulting. It basically tells the laity, you have no right to be concerned about these scandals and no right to withhold your money, so shut up and pay up.
Click to expand...
Good post emilysue.

.
We got a homily last weekend about how if we withhold money from the bishop’s appeal, we’d be withholding money from the needy.
Click to expand...
There are other ways to give to the needy if you are in a situation where your diocese has been irresponsible with the money you gave them.
That totally misses the point of the op-ed as well as the author’s proposed solution – Thiessen suggests donating directly to Catholic charities serving the poor.
Click to expand...
Makes sense. (We choose our own charities. There are other ways to fulfill supporting the Church. One of the things we do, is give some of our tithe right here to Cathohlic Answers.
More to the point, it’s insulting. It basically tells the laity, you have no right to be concerned about these scandals and no right to withhold your money, so shut up and pay up.
Click to expand...
Yes. This would be the type of “clericalism” that the laity have been asked for (by our Holy Father) to not fall prey to.
 
Last edited:
I cannot morally donate money in my parish. I do support charities and programs individually. But we have had some serious issues with general fund donations. From legal defense I don’t want to contribute to (outside of my taxes) to housing and monitored internet used to help in sex trafficking and abuse. Nope… There is a serious lack of accounting and transparency that makes donating downright irresponsible. My tithe is volunteering and supporting Catholic apostolates that I am directly involved with. If my parish had trouble maintaining a worship space or providing materials for Mass then I would help. The Church must remedy this. Because honestly we do have an obligation to provide our faithful priests with retirement, health care etc, or our seminaries with the teachers and facilities to form amazing priests. But the Church has made this impossible for me to do.
 
If only the Church hierarchy could see what is happening but it still seems to think the old rules apply and the laity just needs to fall in line again. Those days are over. There has been too much corruption and evil done. The Church can be healed again, but it is going to take some serious adjustments by those in charge.
 
Cathoholic said:
There are other ways to give to the needy
Click to expand...
I see a lot of people begging around here at intersections, or outside of supermarkets or just on the street. They appear to be in a desperate situation with all their belongings in a cart beside them. I usually give to them. I know it is so important for the US to spend hundreds of billions of dollars every year on the military and the war in Afghanistan and all their nuclear weapons which can wipe out all of mankind in less than a day, but I don’t know why Americans are reluctant to spend a few dollars help out the needy American people who are sleeping on the streets in their miserable poverty. Of course, we read about CEO’s and others making tens of millions of dollars a year and they are complaining about their taxes being too high. There was even one American presidential candidate who placed a substantial amount of his fortune in the Cayman islands to avoid paying as much tax as possible.
As far as the various “abuse” reports are concerned, it seems to be getting worse all the time. And instead of giving us what really has been happening, they use the word “abuse” to hide the horror of what has been going on to the victims. It is no wonder that the weekly Mass attendance is down as people begin to raise questions about these crimes against children and young people.
 
Last edited:
AINg . . .
As far as the various “abuse” reports are concerned, it seems to be getting worse all the time. And instead of giving us what really has been happening, they use the word “abuse” to hide the horror of what has been going on to the victims. It is no wonder that the weekly Mass attendance is down as people begin to raise questions about these crimes against children and young people.
Click to expand...
Good point.

This is WHY it is so important for people to have good catechesis.

So they can see beyond the bad clerics.

The Church has ALWAYS had bad clerics. I think that is WHY our Lord Jesus allowed a bad cleric, Judas, into the Bishopric. To illustrate this point.

Compounding the problem is bad prelates tend not to catechize with any depth.

I give thanks for people like Saint Pope John Paul II the great who had such wisdom giving the Church the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
Last edited:
nunsense said:
If only the Church hierarchy could see what is happening but it still seems to think the old rules apply and the laity just needs to fall in line again. Those days are over. There has been too much corruption and evil done. The Church can be healed again, but it is going to take some serious adjustments by those in charge.
Click to expand...
The battle of old age will win the war. The Church will not change right now. But in 20 years, I think the pool will be a little more pristine. The young Church is watching and they are hurting too. Good bishops, Good priests, Good laity are going to win this.
 
Hoosier-Daddy said:
The battle of old age will win the war.
Click to expand...
It already is winning the war, as many of the alleged abusers and the bishops who allegedly engaged in cover-ups are already dead or close to it.

I’m pretty sure in USA the new bishops coming up are learning from their predecessor’s mistakes. No bishop wants to incur a huge financial liability for his diocese or have his reputation/ career destroyed in the media.

Apart from that, my impression of this whole topic is that it’s become overemotionalized to the point where it’s very difficult to have a balanced discussion about it, anywhere.
 
One thing I’d be careful of is assuming this is something that is past. For some of us it is a hell that is currently burning. There is less than 100 priests in my diocese. That includes religious orders. In the last 5 years we’ve had 3 scandals. A rape, a child abuse and sex trafficking one and a homosexual one. In all instances of criminal activity the diocese had no part in the legal investigations. the diocese is ill equipped to handle this issue. And we have a good bishop. It is the FBI, the police, and the military that find the evidence and bring the perps to Justice.
We also live in a very poorly catechized place for both laity and religious. It’s tough. And I think others don’t understand how lucky they have it.
 
I’m not saying that we’re never going to have a case of an abusive priest again, any more than I can say that we will never again have an abusive police officer, teacher, Protestant clergy person, next door neighbor in a “good” neighborhood, etc. The issue is how we handle it when it happens. I would say that for a criminal offense, then putting it straight into the hands of the civil authorities to be handled according to the law is exactly what should happen, and if it’s happening that way in your diocese then that’s how it should be.

In all the dioceses where I see priests committing crimes in the last 5 years (which have included a couple of child sex abuse cases as well as a drug case and several involving embezzlement or financial mismanagement) it seems like the norm now is to remove the priest immediately and contact law enforcement to handle. The media also covers it as it happens. Seems to be the right way to go, to me.

What seems to be in the past is the coverup issue, the moving of priests to different locations or assignments while still keeping them on active duty, and the sheer numbers of these priests allowed to persist for years in the priesthood, sometimes concentrating them in particular parishes that seemed to be havens for these abusers. Not seeing that now. They get the boot.

I would hope that screening would weed out a larger percentage of bad apples, but I do not think any profession can weed out every single one.
 
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself said:
Apart from that, my impression of this whole topic is that it’s become overemotionalized to the point where it’s very difficult to have a balanced discussion about it, anywhere.
Click to expand...
There is no way not to be emotional about children who have been sexually molested, raped, or sodomised. God please never let me become ‘balanced’ about the criminal abuse of children.
 
As a lawyer, it has often been my job to be fair and balanced in hot-button cases, including child sexual abuse and death penalty cases, and when discussing policy in these areas. “Fair and balanced” means I must also be fair to the defendants, regardless of what heinous acts they’re accused of, convicted of, or liable/ potentially liable for.

God helps me maintain that objectivity, which is absolutely required for me to do my job in a responsible way.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top