And Tango Makes Three

[Whitacre_Girl]

Then I apologize, though I still say your assessment of the OP’s teaching ability is rather premature, given the fact that you know very little about her. She was very clear that she is willing and prepared to meet the special needs of the children of gays in her classroom. Your outburst suggests to me that you consider her unfit for teaching simply because she doesn’t agree with your political views. I certainly hope that isn’t the case.

Thanks for the support :hug1:

Funny enough I get a lot of this at my school. I disagree strongly with the politics that they put forth in my classes. Those classes geared towards politics and working hard to discourage me from teaching and trying to make me believe that I am a hateful and spiteful person that has no place in a classroom because I don’t believe what they say I have to.

Funny, because in other classes where politics don’t play a role (pedagogy, psych., and all my practicum classes where I am actually working WITH the kids) the teachers are passing me through their classes with high marks, and even offering to write recommendations for me to get into schools as quickly as possible. Politics are a brutal thing in this game, but I am going into this to fight for equal rights for ALL.

 

[pnewton]

An appropriate education should recognize the diversity that makes up our culture.

Should this diversity extend to pedophilia, drug abuse, incest, polygamist, swingers? I would have an equal objection to a book promoting the acceptance of open marriage or any of the other above sins. The objection to this sort of book is not that it encourages acceptance of children of homosexuals, but rather people of faith are sick and tired of an agenda that advances the sinful as acceptable. Yes, we all sin. However, it is not the place of any school to teach the devil’s lie that something which is sin, which can send us to Hell, is not sin, but rather just a “choice.” This is but one tactic that Satan uses to bring souls away from God and down into the pit with him.

I admire the stand that Whitacre is taking, but I fear she is right. People of faith are treated with far less tolerance, often zero tolerance, as opposed to any other group.

 

[Allegra]

Thanks for the support :hug1:

Funny enough I get a lot of this at my school. I disagree strongly with the politics that they put forth in my classes. Those classes geared towards politics and working hard to discourage me from teaching and trying to make me believe that I am a hateful and spiteful person that has no place in a classroom because I don’t believe what they say I have to.

Funny, because in other classes where politics don’t play a role (pedagogy, psych., and all my practicum classes where I am actually working WITH the kids) the teachers are passing me through their classes with high marks, and even offering to write recommendations for me to get into schools as quickly as possible. Politics are a brutal thing in this game, but I am going into this to fight for equal rights for ALL.

I’m sorry to hear that. I would recommend that you keep working toward developing a good safe classroom where all your students can learn. It is unlikely that you will be placed in a school where this is the prevailing philosophy. (At least right now.) However, you will most likely have at least one person in your building that will push their agenda under the guise of superior compassion.

The current specimen in my building was just releaved of her duties. (I’m not sure of the reason why, but I have my suspicions.) She was the ELL teacher and frequently went around with the attitude that she was the only one who understood or cared about all our kids’ differences and needs. Anyway, we have a little girl who is a bit of a tomboy and likes to come to school in “boys” clothes. This teacher has taken it upon herself, without the permission of the parents mind you, to start calling this little girl, “him”. She states that on the inside, she’s a boy, and that’s okay. Of course, this backfired on her. The little girl went home and told her parents that this teacher was telling everyone that she was a boy and they went livid and called the principal. The teacher had to stop calling her “him”, but she told a group of us that she thought the girls parents shouldn’t be allowed to have children. All I can say is, there’s one in every school. At least they don’t tend to hang around for long.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I’m sorry to hear that. I would recommend that you keep working toward developing a good safe classroom where all your students can learn. It is unlikely that you will be placed in a school where this is the prevailing philosophy. (At least right now.) However, you will most likely have at least one person in your building that will push their agenda under the guise of superior compassion.

The current specimen in my building was just releaved of her duties. (I’m not sure of the reason why, but I have my suspicions.) She was the ELL teacher and frequently went around with the attitude that she was the only one who understood or cared about all our kids’ differences and needs. Anyway, we have a little girl who is a bit of a tomboy and likes to come to school in “boys” clothes. This teacher has taken it upon herself, without the permission of the parents mind you, to start calling this little girl, “him”. She states that on the inside, she’s a boy, and that’s okay. Of course, this backfired on her. The little girl went home and told her parents that this teacher was telling everyone that she was a boy and they went livid and called the principal. The teacher had to stop calling her “him”, but she told a group of us that she thought the girls parents shouldn’t be allowed to have children. All I can say is, there’s one in every school. At least they don’t tend to hang around for long.

That is awful!!! I am so shocked that a teacher would do this. I can sympathize with that girl because I was a tomboy and I found boys’ clothes far more comfortable and sturdy for rough housing in.

I am thankful that the local district is somewhat more lenient of teachers’ rights in their classrooms. I plan to work there as soona sI have the necessary credentials and it is my dearest hope that ALL students, regardless of religion, are treated fairly and equitably. I see no reason to belittle one student’s religious beliefs because another kid has parents that demand all students accept that so-and-so has two daddies. I also woll not ever tolerate a student putting another down for that reason though. sigh

 

[Tomcmaj]

Should this diversity extend to pedophilia, drug abuse, incest, polygamist, swingers? I would have an equal objection to a book promoting the acceptance of open marriage or any of the other above sins.

It is easy to compare homosexuality to pedophilia, drug abuse, incest, polygamy and swinging…if you characterize homosexuality as a sin.

If same sex attraction is not a choice, how can it be a sin?

Homosexuals are really no different from heterosexuals: some are flamboyant, some are idiots, some are strong community and religious leaders. But most just want to live their lives in peace, contributing to their families and communities as they can.

I know a white lesbian couple who have adopted an African-American daughter. The parents are caring, their daughter is very successful in high school, and her parents are very supportive of her dating a guy in the High School band.

Pnewton, how many gay parents have you talked to about this issue?

(Allegro, thanks for your thoughtful reply…I’ll try to respond within the next few days.)

 

[ThatOneDudeAlex]

Regardless of whether or not being gay is “okay”, the fact is that gay people and their children are part of our communities.

I agree with you that these books will be useful to children from gay families, but they’re even more important for children from straight families because they help combat bullying.

Of course, it’s up to you to choose which ones you think are most appropriate.

This!

 

[pnewton]

It is easy to compare homosexuality to pedophilia, drug abuse, incest, polygamy and swinging…if you characterize homosexuality as a sin.

If same sex attraction is not a choice, how can it be a sin?

It is the act that is a sin. I most definitely characterize it as a sin. How can this even be debated on a Catholic forum?

Homosexuals are really no different from heterosexuals

They can not reproduce. There can be no fruit from them that “makes three.” It’s easy to say that homosexuals are different that the above list, but I have yet to see any material difference. There is one important commonality. They all are mortally sinful and will send an individual to Hell and society into moral bankrutcy.

 

[Allegra]

It is easy to compare homosexuality to pedophilia, drug abuse, incest, polygamy and swinging…if you characterize homosexuality as a sin.

If same sex attraction is not a choice, how can it be a sin?

Homosexuals are really no different from heterosexuals: some are flamboyant, some are idiots, some are strong community and religious leaders. But most just want to live their lives in peace, contributing to their families and communities as they can.

I know a white lesbian couple who have adopted an African-American daughter. The parents are caring, their daughter is very successful in high school, and her parents are very supportive of her dating a guy in the High School band.

Pnewton, how many gay parents have you talked to about this issue?

(Allegro, thanks for your thoughtful reply…I’ll try to respond within the next few days.)

The church, and most of the people on this forum, do in fact consider homosexuality to be a sin. There is also a difference between homosexual practice and SSA. All the illicit activities you listed are choices, and so is engaging in gay sex. Is it under a person’s control to have thoughts of pedophilia? No, probably not. But that person is still responsible for their actions and whether or not they resist their disordered urges or encourage them. At any rate, whether one believe homosexuality is a sin or not, the fact reamains that it isn’t right for a public school teacher to indoctrinate her students with her own beliefs.

 

[Santi2]

Regardless of whether or not being gay is “okay”, the fact is that gay people and their children are part of our communities.

I agree with you that these books will be useful to children from gay families, but they’re even more important for children from straight families because they help combat bullying.

Of course, it’s up to you to choose which ones you think are most appropriate.

I’ll tell you what the effect of these books have created from personal experience.

My 7 year old granddaughter attends a Catholic school. Her best friend does not and attends a school where books like “And Tango Makes Three” have made their way into the reading programme. My granddaughter and her friend go to fetes held by their respective schools. Both give each other a hug when they meet and hold each other’s hands as friends do. They no longer do that because children have called them “lezzies” at her friend’s school which had upset them. Also, my granddaughter and her friend now invite a third girl because they have been wary of the teasing. It makes me cross that there are teachers who think that the purpose of these books is to combat bullying. Over here, schools already implement anti-bullying programmes which protects every possible harassment of children. All these materials have done is corrupt children’s minds.

 

[pnewton]

Also, my granddaughter and her friend now invite a third girl because they have been wary of the teasing. It makes me cross that there are teachers who think that the purpose of these books is to combat bullying. Over here, schools already implement anti-bullying programmes which protects every possible harassment of children. All these materials have done is corrupt children’s minds.

So by raising awareness of homosexuality and attempting to portray it as normal, educators only give more grounds for teasing and bullying. What I find disheartening is the insanity in the modern world that keeps looking to the government programs when they have a proven track history of backfiring and delivering the opposite effect as promised. The underlying cause of this particular fiasco is that the younger the child, the more innocent they are. Morally, they are smarter and superior to the adults who have been corrupted by sin, as we all are prone to be as we get older. The same thing that prevents parents from succeeding at hypocricy while raising children makes programs like this fail.

 

[Tomcmaj]

They can not reproduce. There can be no fruit from them that “makes three.” It’s easy to say that homosexuals are different that the above list, but I have yet to see any material difference. There is one important commonality. They all are mortally sinful and will send an individual to Hell and society into moral bankrutcy.

If you are involved in schools at all, I suggest you make time to visit their GSA Club (Gay Straight Alliance) and LISTEN to what students have to say.

Maybe you won’t be so quick to condemn people to Hell.

 

[Tomcmaj]

There is also a difference between homosexual practice and SSA. All the illicit activities you listed are choices, and so is engaging in gay sex. Is it under a person’s control to have thoughts of pedophilia? No, probably not. But that person is still responsible for their actions and whether or not they resist their disordered urges or encourage them.

Paul wanted straight people to abstain from sex. However, he grudgingly agreed that if OSAs (Opposite Sex Attraction) really HAD to have sex, they should get married first.

For me, self-control was too much of an effort around this one particular woman, so, poor sinner that I am, I made her my wife.



I am sure that for most SSAs, controlling their sexual urges does not take that much effort most of the time. But for some,when they meet that one person…Paul should give SSAs the same “out” that us straight people have. I believe that if he were here today, he would do that.

Why? Because the way I read the Bible, there is no condemnation of homosexuality. What there is, in both the Old and New Testaments, is a condemnation of sexual debauchery.

 

[Allegra]

Paul wanted straight people to abstain from sex. However, he grudgingly agreed that if OSAs (Opposite Sex Attraction) really HAD to have sex, they should get married first.

For me, self-control was too much of an effort around this one particular woman, so, poor sinner that I am, I made her my wife.



I am sure that for most SSAs, controlling their sexual urges does not take that much effort most of the time. But for some,when they meet that one person…Paul should give SSAs the same “out” that us straight people have. I believe that if he were here today, he would do that.

Why? Because the way I read the Bible, there is no condemnation of homosexuality. What there is, in both the Old and New Testaments, is a condemnation of sexual debauchery.

I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretations of Paul’s letters. However, it isn’t our place, nor was it Paul’s, to give anyone an “out” for sin. There is very clear condemnation of homosexuality (Which is a form of debauchery.) in the Bible.

 

[Allegra]

If you are involved in schools at all, I suggest you make time to visit their GSA Club (Gay Straight Alliance) and LISTEN to what students have to say.

Maybe you won’t be so quick to condemn people to Hell.

Pnewton can’t condemn anyone to hell. We choose that fate if we refuse to be open to God’s Word or accept his forgiveness. I’m afraid that obsession over sex can lead anyone to seperate themselves from God. Whatever they have to say at those clubs, it can’t change the truth of the matter. (By the way, most schools don’t have them.)

 

[Tomcmaj]

The problem is, we live in a country where people are allowed to have their own beliefs, and many people don’t want to send their children to a tax-funded school in order to be indoctrinated with beliefs they don’t agree with.

It took many years to end racial segregation in tax-funded schools. Some of the methods seemed to cause even more problems than they tried to solve, but somehow, we got though it. I’m sure, though, there are people who amazingly still believe that desegregation is wrong.

Therefore, it is the school’s job to remain neutral, which can be very difficult to do.

I’m not sure neutrality is the right answer. Having been involved in some of the recent “Values” movements (A long, fascinating and infuriating story which we can get into on some other thread) in public schools, the teacher/administration plays an important role in moving culture forward.

That’s why it is important for the parents, teachers, and administration to have a common plan for educating the children of gay people appropriately, without stepping on the rights of the other students.

I don’t think the kids of gay parents should be brought up in a bubble. I’m not sure how to defend someone’s “right” to deny the existence of families headed by gay parents.

 

[Tomcmaj]

There is very clear condemnation of homosexuality (Which is a form of debauchery.) in the Bible.

In as much as homosexuality is part of debauchery, I agree that it should be condemned.

In as much as homosexuality is not a part of debauchery, I think it should not be condemned.

The word “homosexuality” is not to be found in my Bible.

 

[Tomcmaj]

I’m afraid that obsession over sex can lead anyone to seperate themselves from God.

I’m glad we can agree on something, Allegra!

 

[Allegra]

It took many years to end racial segregation in tax-funded schools. Some of the methods seemed to cause even more problems than they tried to solve, but somehow, we got though it. I’m sure, though, there are people who amazingly still believe that desegregation is wrong.

I’m not sure neutrality is the right answer. Having been involved in some of the recent “Values” movements (A long, fascinating and infuriating story which we can get into on some other thread) in public schools, the teacher/administration plays an important role in moving culture forward.

I don’t think the kids of gay parents should be brought up in a bubble. I’m not sure how to defend someone’s “right” to deny the existence of families headed by gay parents.

The nature of the issue of homosexuality is very different from racial segragation. A persons race, for one, is something entirely beyond their control, and therefore not an issue of morality. Secondly, the laws which desegragated schools were designed to prohibit actions against black students, not white supremists right to think what they want. What the civil rights movement wanted was the right for black children to attend school without fear of violence or mistreatment. The children of homosexuals already posess this right and courts are prepared to protect them from those who would act against this right. This is not enough for some in the pro-gay movement. They want to use the public school system, as you say, to promote their moral agenda over other people’s. They are not satisfied with the legal right to engage in this disordered behavoir. They want to silence all voices which disagree with them by law. They want their beliefs to be taught to all students in public schools. This is unacceptable. Keep in mind that the few white-supremists that are still active out there still posess the right to speak their opinion, no matter how much we disagree with them. Children in public schools have a right to their religious beliefs and not to have the moral codes of others forced upon them.

 

[Allegra]

I don’t think the kids of gay parents should be brought up in a bubble. I’m not sure how to defend someone’s “right” to deny the existence of families headed by gay parents.

I’m not sure what you mean by “deny the existence of families…” I don’t think anyone intends to deny their existence. I’m speaking of defending the right to believe that homosexuality is immoral.

 

[Allegra]

In as much as homosexuality is part of debauchery, I agree that it should be condemned.

In as much as homosexuality is not a part of debauchery, I think it should not be condemned.

The word “homosexuality” is not to be found in my Bible.

Don’t be rediculous. The word “Trinity” doesn’t appear in your Bible either, but we all know when it is being described or refered to. What do you think is being refered to in Leviticus?