And the Church Continues to Crumble

[Madaglan]

There are few times during the Church’s history in which there were not problems with the clergy and the lay people. However, it seems that today there are new types of problems little experienced in the Church’s past. These problems are only getting worse, and there seems little plan of action to speed the recovery of the Church.

The following are several topics I hope we might be able to discuss. Perhaps we can come to some conclusions as to why these are presently large problems in the Church.

1. Mass attendance - Especially in many European countries, but also in the Americas, mass attendance–especially daily mass–is hitting a low. Is secular culture to blame?
2. Dressing down at mass - I’m 21; but I remember just about 10 years ago that most of the male adults in the church would wear sportscoats (or some other fine clothing) to Sunday masses. Women, likewise, would wear dresses. Nowadays I go to mass and people are there with jeans, tee shirts, sneakers, etc. What’s with this?
3. Decrease of Vocations to Priesthood - Seminaries across the country are being consolidated due to a shortage of vocations to the priesthood. In some countries in Europe priests are becoming in charge of more and more people, and they no longer are able to know their parishoners personally. What to do about this shortage? Will the shortage end?
4. Misconduct in the Priesthood - Although the priests accused constitute a minority of the priesthood, and although many accused are most likely innocent, how well are preventions to misconduct being addressed in the Church?
5. Shorter Confession Lines - The lines are getting shorter at many churches. Are people placing less efficacy in the sacrament of confession? Are evangelical beliefs an influence? Secular culture?
6. Poor Instruction of the Faith - Maybe I’m just alone, but I had an horrible formal education of the faith. I was not a troublesome student, but I did not realize some major articles of the faith until just a few years back. For one, I didn’t understand that Christ was supposed to come back. Silly me. How was your CCD or Catholic education? Should the Church place greater emphasis on the need for parents to individually teach their children about the Church, about what the Bible tells us, etc? My parents never did that for me, and I feel that I would have been a better Catholic early on had my parents read me the Bible rather than Tom Sawyer (which comes down hard on religion).
7. Liturgical Abuses - Deacons taking over the roles of priests, improper disposal of leftovers, etc.
8. Globalization/Ecumenism - In today’s world one can just as easily be a Buddhist as an Orthodox Christian. Although it may not be explicit, there is a great tendency in many peoples’ minds towards what might be termed natural religion. Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Jains, Orthodox Jews, Catholic Christians, Evangelicals–it matters less what or whom they place their faith in than in what the people actually do. At least that’s the growing consensus (which I disagree with). However, I know many of my friends and family who switch churches in the belief that God doesn’t care so much about what you believe in so much as if you’re a good person. It seems right to many people, but is not the only way to the Father through the Son? And can one only enter heaven if one is a member of the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church–Christ’s Church?

Those are just the ones I can think of off-hand. I’m looking for reasons WHY these might be problems in the Church today, and what we can do to improve the situation.

 

[Agomemnon]

you listed several items that are definitely horrble problems facing the Church today.

Although I believe that much of the problems can be traced to the unmitigated failure of the so-called liturgical reform…that isn’t the complete root cause but it was the accelerator to much of the problems.

The root cause of the Crisis in the Church is due to the heresy of contraception that has swept and is destroying the Church.

Contraception is an anti-sacrament…a destroyer of Grace. The ‘mark’ of the beast in fact. Only those that accept contraception have blinded themselves and view everything from a distorted view. This includes clergy and laity. Both are guilty.

To combat the evil we must constantly and at every mass confess the belief in the unitive and procreative nature of marriage, that all children are a gift from God that we freely accept, that abortion is an abominable crime condemned from the beginning. And in the end we will actually need bishops with spines.

 

[katolik]

Agomemnon:

you listed several items that are definitely horrble problems facing the Church today.

Although I believe that much of the problems can be traced to the unmitigated failure of the so-called liturgical reform…that isn’t the complete root cause but it was the accelerator to much of the problems.

The root cause of the Crisis in the Church is due to the heresy of contraception that has swept and is destroying the Church.

Contraception is an anti-sacrament…a destroyer of Grace. The ‘mark’ of the beast in fact. Only those that accept contraception have blinded themselves and view everything from a distorted view. This includes clergy and laity. Both are guilty.

To combat the evil we must constantly and at every mass confess the belief in the unitive and procreative nature of marriage, that all children are a gift from God that we freely accept, that abortion is an abominable crime condemned from the beginning. And in the end we will actually need bishops with spines.

Nope the root of the problem is modernism. Plain and simple. Ask Pope Pius IX,St.Pius X,Leo XIII,Pope Pius XI,or Pope Pius XII about it. They have plenty of enyclicals condemning what is now considered normal in many churches.

 

[Franciscum]

Madaglan:

There are few times during the Church’s history in which there were not problems with the clergy and the lay people. However, it seems that today there are new types of problems little experienced in the Church’s past. These problems are only getting worse, and there seems little plan of action to speed the recovery of the Church.

The following are several topics I hope we might be able to discuss. Perhaps we can come to some conclusions as to why these are presently large problems in the Church.

1. Mass attendance - Especially in many European countries, but also in the Americas, mass attendance–especially daily mass–is hitting a low. Is secular culture to blame?
2. Dressing down at mass - I’m 21; but I remember just about 10 years ago that most of the male adults in the church would wear sportscoats (or some other fine clothing) to Sunday masses. Women, likewise, would wear dresses. Nowadays I go to mass and people are there with jeans, tee shirts, sneakers, etc. What’s with this?
3. Decrease of Vocations to Priesthood - Seminaries across the country are being consolidated due to a shortage of vocations to the priesthood. In some countries in Europe priests are becoming in charge of more and more people, and they no longer are able to know their parishoners personally. What to do about this shortage? Will the shortage end?
4. Misconduct in the Priesthood - Although the priests accused constitute a minority of the priesthood, and although many accused are most likely innocent, how well are preventions to misconduct being addressed in the Church?
5. Shorter Confession Lines - The lines are getting shorter at many churches. Are people placing less efficacy in the sacrament of confession? Are evangelical beliefs an influence? Secular culture?
6. Poor Instruction of the Faith - Maybe I’m just alone, but I had an horrible formal education of the faith. I was not a troublesome student, but I did not realize some major articles of the faith until just a few years back. For one, I didn’t understand that Christ was supposed to come back. Silly me. How was your CCD or Catholic education? Should the Church place greater emphasis on the need for parents to individually teach their children about the Church, about what the Bible tells us, etc? My parents never did that for me, and I feel that I would have been a better Catholic early on had my parents read me the Bible rather than Tom Sawyer (which comes down hard on religion).
7. Liturgical Abuses - Deacons taking over the roles of priests, improper disposal of leftovers, etc.
8. Globalization/Ecumenism - In today’s world one can just as easily be a Buddhist as an Orthodox Christian…

Not a single one of these problems is new to the Church. Not a single one.

Those that panic the quickest are those without an understanding of Church history. The Church has been in far more difficult times than it is in today and it has survived and even prospered. Why? Because God promised it would.

I would just like to see all the extremes – both “right” and “left” either leave or get with the program. That’s what it’s going to take, and that will require education…

 

[Ray_Marshall]

Madaglan:

Those are just the ones I can think of off-hand. I’m looking for reasons WHY these might be problems in the Church today, and what we can do to improve the situation.

Your list is pretty complete. I congratulate you on being able to recognize the problem at a comparatively young age.

I don’t have the answers.

But in a lame defense of the Church, much of what has happened in the last forty years since Vatican II, happened not just to the Church, but to the rest of society as well.

Illegitimacy is up, Divorce is up, cohabitation is up; sex in the media is up; drugs are way up; cheating/plagiarism is way up; pornography is way up; gambling is way up; “business casual” is up; voter participation is down; I could go on and on. In terms of politics, people stopped working at coalition building in terms of political parties and society fragmented into interest groups, most unwilling to compromise.

When the history of the 20th Century is written, I think that you will find that the period from 1960-1970 will be determined to have been one of civic revolution. The Church didn’t have much to do with most of that. It got hit with many events like everybody else got hit and became immobilized because Bishops weren’t prepared to speak on many issues and because people stopped listening to Bishops anyway. They ceased to be respected leaders; they became administrators attempting to put out fires. And many, maybe most, did an awful job.

They wanted to be liked; they weren’t prepared to deal with outright disobedience. So they ignored the disobedient.

This isn’t very well written, but it needs to be said. I’ll work on it and re-post.

Thanks for raising the issue, Madaglan! You are a very valuable part of these Forums. Keep it up!!

 

[FrmrTrad]

katolik:

Nope the root of the problem is modernism.

Can the ‘problem’ be an “ism”?

I wonder what effect the Internet has had on the Church. Consider: Catholics with questions would once ask the clergy. Now they turn to the Internet, to some extent, where their least suspicion can be met with gusto: publishing and reading are cheap and cheaper. Whatever you believe, you can find someone who believes it even more strongly than you do, and you can tap into their enthusiasm. The cymbals clang.

Here are some broader social analyses that may be of interest.

That file is available through the Internet!

 

[JoaoMachado]

			*Every one that cometh to me and heareth my words and doth them, I will shew you to whom he is like. He is like to a man building a house, who digged deep and laid the foundation upon a rock. And when a flood came, the stream beat vehemently upon that house: and it could not shake it: for it was founded on a rock.

(Luke 6:47-48 DRB)*

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-19 DRB)

*But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.(1 Timothy 3:15 DRB)

***Have Faith, He promised to be with His Church, keep on the narrow road and help those trying to get on, those stalled on the side and even those stuck in second gear. As for the rest, well, all you can do is pray! At 21, the Holy Spirit is already working hard in you, peace be with you brother.

Joao

**

 

[FrmrTrad]

Madaglan:

it seems that today there are new types of problems little experienced in the Church’s past.

Personally I doubt this. I’ve heard that the time approaching the year A.D. 1000 was pretty rough too.

mass attendance–especially daily mass–is hitting a low.

This is one area where traditionalists are practically criminal in their influence. Traditionalists are among the more devout Catholics, but they typically come to believe that the Pauline rite must be avoided; they believe, at least, that it is inferior. As such they often forgo daily mass, because they can’t get to the Tridentine rite during the week: it is either not available or it is too far to travel. They may easily go right past a Pauline rite mass during morning or evening commute, or be near one at lunchtime, but they avoid it, thinking they mustn’t set ‘a bad example’ of attending the Pauline rite.

Ecumenism … I know many of my friends and family who switch churches in the belief that God doesn’t care so much about what you believe in so much as if you’re a good person.

Ecumenism is a problem? The Holy Father has said quite the opposite. Indifferentism is not ecumenism, and those who favor the opinion that the ecumenism practiced by the Church is wrong may have been reading too many Sungenis screeds. Read, for instance, this reply to a Sungenis screed about Assisi. So many today, especially “traditionalists”, are willing to judge the Pope and assume the worst of him. It is also a terrible problem, that you didn’t mention by the way.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Franciscum:

Those that panic the quickest are those without an understanding of Church history. The Church has been in far more difficult times than it is in today and it has survived and even prospered. Why? Because God promised it would.

I have no doubt that the Church faced difficult times in the past and survived. The Arian heresy, for one, was quite terrible. Perhaps many of the problems in my list were problems of the past that were overcome. However, I’m still quite concerned because, unlike in the past, Catholics today come into contact with so many different philosophies, theologies and temptations which, before the cosmopolitan trend we see today, were not as influential.

In all the problems of the past there were Catholic heroes who destroyed heresy and who set everything back in order. Where are these heroes today? What are they doing?

 

[puzzleannie]

the flames of Pentecost had not died out before the infant Church had to deal with heretics, scandalous doings by believers and Church leaders, persecution, and other grave problems. There has never been a period of Church history that was without grave problems and challenges. The threat of other philosophies and religions influencing Catholic teaching and practice was the reason for a lot of the writing of the Fathers, and the work of early church councils. It is also the reason doctrine was defined and developed, as a response to challenges to its authenticity.

Many of the problems you describe are typical of the Church in America and Western Europe, but not in the booming Church in the developing world. The countries converted by western missionaries are now sending their priests to evangelize us. Don’t confuse problems of the American church with those of the universal church.

 

[FrmrTrad]

Madaglan:

In all the problems of the past there were Catholic heroes who destroyed heresy and who set everything back in order. Where are these heroes today? What are they doing?

I think the heroes of today are those who are faithful to the magisterium and who try to write and organize. This is a very literate time. Giving people good access to good information is very necessary. There’s a lot of trash out there! A lot of it is put out by people who claim to be faithful to the magisterium but who are not. Another heroic thing to try to do is to work toward the conversion of public people. Those conversions would be visible and would be a light on a lampstand. We need small ‘heroes’ too, people who pray and live upright lives. Be a ‘hero’: pray the breviary and attend daily mass whenever possible!

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by FrmrTrad:

Ecumenism is a problem? The Holy Father has said quite the opposite. Indifferentism is not ecumenism, and those who favor the opinion that the ecumenism practiced by the Church is wrong may have been reading too many Sungenis screeds. Read, for instance, this reply to a Sungenis screed about Assisi. So many today, especially “traditionalists”, are willing to judge the Pope and assume the worst of him. It is also a terrible problem, that you didn’t mention by the way.

I do not see anything wrong with ecumenism so long as the beliefs of the Church are not changed to facilitate a reunion. I should have clarified what I meant. It is not so much ecumenism itself which I believe is a problem, but the notion that, if John Paul II works with Lutherans, Buddhists, et al, that these religions must not be all that bad, and that I can just as easily obtain salvation as a Lutheran or Jew. This was, in fact, a problem during the convivencia of Spain before the Inquisition. Rather than recognizably identify the beliefs of the other religions as false and damning, the Jews, Muslims and Catholics shared their beliefs in relative comfort and in peace. Eventually many Catholics truly believed that each of the three religions had just as good a means of obtaining salvation. I recall reading an account by a visiting bishop, I believe, who was horrified at how many Catholics knew more about the Muslim religion than their own.

I’m just honestly worried that ecumenism, while well-intended and perhaps beneficial for the Church, may end up in some tendencies not in conformation with what the Church in the past has held to be true. I fear of universalism or semi-universalism may sweep into the Church.

I acknowledge that the pope, in his Crossing the Threshold of Hope, does indeed mention the shortcomings of non-Catholic religions; and I truly hope that the pope and his bishops uphold the dignity of the Catholic Church.

 

[Franciscum]

FrmrTrad:

Personally I doubt this. I’ve heard that the time approaching the year A.D. 1000 was pretty rough too.This is one area where traditionalists are practically criminal in their influence. Traditionalists are among the more devout Catholics, but they typically come to believe that the Pauline rite must be avoided; they believe, at least, that it is inferior. As such they often forgo daily mass, because they can’t get to the Tridentine rite during the week: it is either not available or it is too far to travel. They may easily go right past a Pauline rite mass during morning or evening commute, or be near one at lunchtime, but they avoid it, thinking they mustn’t set ‘a bad example’ of attending the Pauline rite.Ecumenism is a problem? The Holy Father has said quite the opposite. Indifferentism is not ecumenism, and those who favor the opinion that the ecumenism practiced by the Church is wrong may have been reading too many Sungenis screeds. Read, for instance, this reply to a Sungenis screed about Assisi. So many today, especially “traditionalists”, are willing to judge the Pope and assume the worst of him. It is also a terrible problem, that you didn’t mention by the way.

Thanks for the thoughtful response…

 

[Agomemnon]

katolik:

Nope the root of the problem is modernism. Plain and simple. Ask Pope Pius IX,St.Pius X,Leo XIII,Pope Pius XI,or Pope Pius XII about it. They have plenty of enyclicals condemning what is now considered normal in many churches.

you are correct that what has been codemned (and rightfully so) is now present. But Modernism has crystalized into the heresies of contraception, abortion, homosexuality…all these require a person to declare themselves God and outright deny God’s grace.

 

[FrmrTrad]

Madaglan:

It is not so much ecumenism itself which I believe is a problem, but the notion that, if John Paul II works with Lutherans, Buddhists, et al, that these religions must not be all that bad,

In what way is he “working with” them? From what I can tell, Catholic beliefs are not being compromised by these efforts. They may bear fruit well into the future. I think the trouble is that in our times, society is not organized so hierarchically as it was. We can’t just convert a king and then account his people Catholic. A highly literate diversified society of self-sufficient people has to be evangelized differently from a highly organized or stratified society which is generally only living slightly above subsistence level.

I think that ecumenical experimentation and outreach is necessary, given that social arrangements today are simply not what they were. Even converting the father of a household in no way guarantees that his kids will follow suit. However, such experimentation is vulnerable to the personal weaknesses of the clergy and laity who participate. The ‘ecumenism game’ on the local level might mean meeting during the week to discuss Islam–why not meet for Vespers? Similarly, the ‘evening bible study game’ can mean an invitation to toy with the Scriptures, and imagine all sorts of reasons why the Jews wrote one thing or another. It opens the door to second-guessing the Scriptures or imagining them to be something other than solid. Exegesis is necessary, but on our knees, if you please. The personal weaknesses of those involved translate into a host of problems. But that’s unavoidable.

This was, in fact, a problem during the convivencia of Spain before the Inquisition. Rather than recognizably identify the beliefs of the other religions as false and damning, the Jews, Muslims and Catholics shared their beliefs in relative comfort and in peace. Eventually many Catholics truly believed that each of the three religions had just as good a means of obtaining salvation. I recall reading an account by a visiting bishop, I believe, who was horrified at how many Catholics knew more about the Muslim religion than their own.

Can you supply any citations for this? In any case, recall that society is different now. Everybody is a literate unit assumed to be radically independent.

 

[SeekerJen]

Madaglan:

I have no doubt that the Church faced difficult times in the past and survived. The Arian heresy, for one, was quite terrible. Perhaps many of the problems in my list were problems of the past that were overcome. However, I’m still quite concerned because, unlike in the past, Catholics today come into contact with so many different philosophies, theologies and temptations which, before the cosmopolitan trend we see today, were not as influential.

In all the problems of the past there were Catholic heroes who destroyed heresy and who set everything back in order. Where are these heroes today? What are they doing?

We know about the “heroes” of the past because hindsight is 20/20. It’s a lot easier to identify them when they and their contemporaries are gone. And as for your concern about Catholics encountering differing theologies- well, less than 500 years ago the Protestants split off and began converting. I imagine they were as influential if not more so, because 1) most people were illiterate and had to rely on word-of-mouth, and 2) entire governments converted, and expected their citizens to convert or die. Fortunately many more of us are literate today, and stand a better chance against propaganda. Many of us also live in countries where religious freedom is our right.

The heroes of today are the ones who are fighting for the Church. Perhaps even some of the people on these boards. 200 years from now they may be famous as well.

Remember, the gates of hell will not prevail. Christ said He would be with us, even to the end of the age. I tend to believe Him rather than doom-and-gloom predictions about the end of the Church.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by FrmrTrad:

Can you supply any citations for this? In any case, recall that society is different now. Everybody is a literate unit assumed to be radically independent.

The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision, by Henry Kamen

I don’t have the book with me presently, as I received it through Inter-Library Loan. But I believe the first two or three chapters discuss the convivencia.

Essentially Henry Kamen looks at the Inquisition from an objective standpoint. He notes how many Protestant historians over-exaggerated the tortures and deaths of the Inquisition; but at the same time, he is critical of the view that the Inquisition never did horrible things. It’s actually a well-balanced book.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

The word “nepotism” derives from the French word for “nephew”. Medieval prelates used to show favoritism to their relatives – which might be nephews or might have been illegitimate sons – by giving them plum appointments that they did not deserve. There was a time when indulgences were bought and sold. Things really have been this bad, sometimes worse.

Confession used to be something you were allowed to do once in a lifetime. Then it was something that you essentially had to do every week. The understanding of the sacrament changes. Let us hope that the current understanding changes to lead to a greater frequency in receiving the sacrament, as many people do not know the benefit of the sacrament or realize that it is not reserved for times of necessity.

Years ago, when a few priests were doing unspeakable things to children, those who reported it were not believed or the offenses were covered up. Because of that, some innocent, wounded souls fled the Church, a Church that should have been willing to suffer to disgrace rather than let those little ones down. Later, more little ones were victimized by these same priests, when they could have been protected. We kept thieves from ever holding a position of being in charge of money, but gave these sick men the benefit of the doubt. I think the bishops of the time meant well, but this change we are going through on that front is going to be for the best.

Stay in the battle, but with confidence. Do not let any scandal or persecution sway you. God will not abandon us.

 

[Livnlove55]

FrmrTrad:

I wonder what effect the Internet has had on the Church. Consider: Catholics with questions would once ask the clergy. Now they turn to the Internet, to some extent, where their least suspicion can be met with gusto

Interesting that you say that… I am an RCIA candidate who just got back from having a long discussion with my pastor. I had read some things in these forums and in other groups that had raised disturbing questions in my mind so I made an appointment to talk to him about those questions. Just yesterday I told my sponsor that he was really the only person I trusted to give me an accurate answer.

I love the Internet and I will be forever grateful to my online Catholic friends who first introduced me to the Church and her teachings. Even so, my experience on the Internet is just as you described. You can always find **someone **who will tell you what you want to hear and support your opinions. And sometimes it wearies me when all I really want is to know the truth. So I keep reading and keep learning but when things get too confusing, I will always go back to the pastor God has placed over me in my parish.
In His love,
Rhonda

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

What’s the point of stupid threads like this, that contribute absolutely nothing original, nothing that hasn’t been, or isn’t being, discussed in other threads?

Do people just like hearing their own voices heard?