And the Church Continues to Crumble

[JGC]

DominvsVobiscvm:

What’s the point of stupid threads like this, that contribute absolutely nothing original, nothing that hasn’t been, or isn’t being, discussed in other threads?

Do people just like hearing their own voices heard?

There are people with under 100 posts here. Do they not get to air their views?

It’s not a stupid thread at all quite frankly.

People throwing in quotes like ‘do people just like their voices being heard’. Perhaps people who post a quote like that like hearing their own voice…

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

There are people with under 100 posts here. Do they not get to air their views?

I’m saying why start another thread on the same old topic, when there are currently active threads discussing the same darned thing.

It really gets sickening after a while.

 

[jrabs]

DominvsVobiscvm:

I’m saying why start another thread on the same old topic, when there are currently active threads discussing the same darned thing.

It really gets sickening after a while.

I have a great answer for that. The search function is only as good as the words you pick to search on.

There are thousands of threads now - and unless you get lucky and select your topic header correctly, then the search is gonna come up empty. You can do a manual search, but it’s easy to miss a previous thread.

So cut him some slack. New members join daily who may value this thread and may a refreshing point of view. It’s not like it’s an imposition to you, right?

 

[_veritas]

To return the thread to the original post…

Madaglan:

There are few times during the Church’s history in which there were not problems with the clergy and the lay people. However, it seems that today there are new types of problems little experienced in the Church’s past. These problems are only getting worse, and there seems little plan of action to speed the recovery of the Church.

Well, not really… you want to see some fun times in the Church? Ever hear the saying “Athanasius against the world?” Back in the days of Sts. Augustine, Athanasius and Ambrose (the “A” crowd! ) there were heresies up the whazoo!! Granted many of the specific problems you cite are “modernist” problems, but they all go back to the root issues of poor catechesis, self-absorbment, disregard of authority, and hedonistic nihilism – all of which have been problems since the Fall itself.

As for these specific problems, I would suggest that they are all a result, as others have said, of the error of modernism. If you look back at the classic Catholic writings of the last two centuries, you will realize that many of the writers were concerned about modernism – the Popes in particular, but also with more readable and contemporary authors like GK Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. (I would highly suggest that everyone read Chesterton’s “Orthodoxy!” Now that was a man ahead of his time…)

Our Church is now reaping the same modernist harvest that the rest of humanity is reaping – as the Church is still in the world, even if it is not of the world.

However – there is always hope. In certain areas, whether vast areas like Africa and Asia, or small areas like my own parish, things are improving, and things are getting better. In my parish, daily Mass attendance is going up, confession lines are getting longer, liturgical abuses are being corrected, and catecheis and evangelization efforts are gaining momentum. In our Archdiocese as a whole, the numbers of seminarians are increasing each year (this year we will have 15 new priests ordained for the Archdiocese!), we have more Adoration chapels (35+) than almost any other diocese in the world, and our Archbishop has done a very good job in dealing with the whole “priest abuse scandal”, beginning long before the big “breaking news” events of 2002. Things are not all bad.

Take heart, God is with us! O Come, o come Emmanuel (“God-with-us”)

+veritas+

 

[bigdaddyfatback]

Madaglan:

I’m looking for reasons WHY these might be problems in the Church today, and what we can do to improve the situation.

The first question is simple to answer: the fall.

The second one is even simpler: pray.

Don’t forget who is the head of the Church, and his promises regarding it. No human can fix it, and no human can destroy it. The Church is of God.

I think God has already called some of his new heroes, they are writing books, giving talks, doing shows on television and radio, and some of them participate on forums like this. Some of them are religious, some of them are lay persons. But they are out there ignititing the fire of faith in the faithful.

I agree with Veritas, it is getting better around here too.

A local church sold out a Father Corapi talk. SOLD OUT. People are actually PAYING to hear a priest talk about the faith. They get a homily for free every week (indeed everyday if they want it) but they are willing to pay for it. Why? Because they hear the faith proclaimed from Father Corapi in a way that proclaims the Gospel with conviction and strength, but with compassion and love. It is not ‘feel good’ Catholicism, but it makes people feel better than the lukewarm swill so many parish priests preach.

The tide is changing. I heard a homily about “faithful obedience” a while back, and one of my Parish priests finds a way to incorporate a section of the Catechism every homily.

But is God’s work, always and forever. If we are called we must follow, but it is still His work.

Peace,
Chad

 

[MarkInOregon]

DominvsVobiscvm:

What’s the point of stupid threads like this, that contribute absolutely nothing original, nothing that hasn’t been, or isn’t being, discussed in other threads?

Do people just like hearing their own voices heard?

Thank you for your nice, polite and charitable insite. Thanks for offering us an original and thoughtful statement–for giving us something truly original and creative to ponder and discuss.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

DominvsVobiscvm:

I’m saying why start another thread on the same old topic, when there are currently active threads discussing the same darned thing.

It really gets sickening after a while.

DominvsVobiscvm,

You are not required to read this thread–I trust no one has a gun to your head forcing you to read this. So why are you hear? Obviously someone felt like discussing this. Maybe they hadn’t come accross it as a separate discussion.

I would ask that you offer you comments in a polite and respectful manner, and if you find a thread not to you liking to just move on and find a thread you find interesting. Casting dispersions helps no one and it makes us look uncharitable.

The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark

 

[Chris-WA]

Madaglan:

The following are several topics I hope we might be able to discuss. Perhaps we can come to some conclusions as to why these are presently large problems in the Church.

1. Mass attendance
2. Dressing down at mass
3. Decrease of Vocations to Priesthood
4. Misconduct in the Priesthood
5. Shorter Confession Lines
6. Poor Instruction of the Faith
7. Liturgical Abuses
8. Globalization/Ecumenism

Those are just the ones I can think of off-hand. I’m looking for reasons WHY these might be problems in the Church today, and what we can do to improve the situation.

Personnally, I feel that number 6 is the root cause of the rest of your list. For some reason in the last few decades, parents stopped teaching their kids about the Church. The Church has not sufficiently made up the difference with good catechesis. We need good Sunday school for every child and adult in every parish around the world. We need a single world-wide syllabus published by the magisterium in every language to teach us the faith. We need teachers who are willing to submit themselves to the authority of the church and teach what the church teaches and not make up their own syllabus.

You can tell I have very strong feelings on the subject. I believe this problem requires a massive effort that can only be done by Rome. I believe the recent influx of ex-Protestant ministers into the Catholic Church may be the starting point for these changes. Solve number 6 by educating Catholic adults about Catholicism and the rest of those problems will start solving themselves.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Matthew 16: 13-18

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.* ***
**
Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

 

[Chris-WA]

Dj Roy Albert:

Matthew 16: 13-18

13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.****
**
Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Actually, that doesn’t settle anything. Of course we all believe the church will survive through all these problems. We have Jesus’ promise on that. But it doesn’t mean the church will survive in Europe, or the U.S., or in whatever location. How do we know this? The church existed in many ancient places where it does not exist today, such as Ephesus, which was one of the strongest places for the church in ancient times. When people turned away from the gospel the church dies in those locations. That is why these issues need to be addressed–to make sure the church survives everywhere.

Do I think we are in grave danger of losing the church in some of these places—the U.S. no, but many places in Europe–yes.

 

[bear06]

Chris-WA:

Actually, that doesn’t settle anything. Of course we all believe the church will survive through all these problems. We have Jesus’ promise on that. But it doesn’t mean the church will survive in Europe, or the U.S., or in whatever location. How do we know this? The church existed in many ancient places where it does not exist today, such as Ephesus, which was one of the strongest places for the church in ancient times. When people turned away from the gospel the church dies in those locations. That is why these issues need to be addressed–to make sure the church survives everywhere.

Do I think we are in grave danger of losing the church in some of these places—the U.S. no, but many places in Europe–yes.

This kind of sounds like the mormons.

 

[katolik]

bear06:

This kind of sounds like the mormons.

What do you mean?
The Church once was the main religion of Egypt,Turkey,Lebanon, Israel,Syria,Iraq,Libya,Tunisia,Bosnia, and many other places. Now Christians are a persecuted minority. Syria once had 90,000 monks[in the 500s] and then Mohammed came and destroyed the Catholics and now they are less than 5% of the population.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Chris-WA:

Do I think we are in grave danger of losing the church in some of these places—the U.S. no, but many places in Europe–yes.

I have had a rather distinguished theologian address us in the same vein of thought; there is no guarantee that the church will survive in all places at all times under all conditions. He gave a great talk on the statement from Fatima, “in Portugal a remnant of the faith will always exist…”

Those of us who have grown up in a world where churches were a few blocks apart, services always available, may find it hard to believe that both may not always be available and in some cases attending them may have a cost higher than we are used to paying.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Syria once had 90,000 monks[in the 500s] and then Mohammed came and destroyed the Catholics and now they are less than 5% of the population.

Most Syrians (the overwhelming majority?) in the 500s were not Catholic. They were Oriental Orthodox (i.e. “Monophysite”) or Nestorian. But your point is still well-taken.

 

[TheGarg]

Chris-WA:

Personnally, I feel that number 6 is the root cause of the rest of your list.

** I think the nail is being hit right on the head with this statement!!! I am a 30 year old cradle catholic, and I just learned the other day that we have mass just like they have mass in heaven, as described in revelation!!! I went and saw a conference at Bone Student Auditorium in Bloomington, IL featuring Dr. Scott Hahn . **

and my eyes have been opened!!!

**I find whole new reasons to fall in love with the Church every day and my thirst for an understanding of my faith is growing daily. **

**Since my “awakening” I am organizing a CatholicScriptureStudy at my parish and I would encourage any Catholic that isn’t involved in one at their parish, to get involved and if there isn’t one at their parish, THEN START ONE **

**Education of my Catholic Faith is KEY in my MAIN mission as a Christian, and that is to profess the Good News and bring people to his Church!!! **

To do that to the best of my ability requires a solid knowledge of Church Doctrine and History. If I can’t answer people’s questions, then they will go somewhere else, especially in times like these, where instant gratification is dominant.
I don’t see the church crumbling, but I do see ample oppurtunity to improve myself and be the best Christian I can be!!!

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Chris-WA:

Actually, that doesn’t settle anything. Of course we all believe the church will survive through all these problems. We have Jesus’ promise on that. But it doesn’t mean the church will survive in Europe, or the U.S., or in whatever location. How do we know this? The church existed in many ancient places where it does not exist today, such as Ephesus, which was one of the strongest places for the church in ancient times. When people turned away from the gospel the church dies in those locations. That is why these issues need to be addressed–to make sure the church survives everywhere.

Do I think we are in grave danger of losing the church in some of these places—the U.S. no, but many places in Europe–yes.

Oh ye of little faith.
How can we “lose” the church? We are the church, the people of God. Church buildings may grow old & crumble, some people may lose faith, & some countries that were once strong in their love for God have been led astray, but the Universal Church remains. Jesus said “if two or more are gathered in my name”…do you really think that the church “dies”?? Saddening.
The Gospel may not be preached as much or as often in every place around the world as it once was, but that does not mean that the church has “died” in those places. God’s blessings can remain for as long as He wants.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Jesus assures us in the Gospel that the gates of Hell will not prevail against his Church. So the question is, do we trust Jesus? And do we believe that our Church is really the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church that He founded?

If we answer yes to these questions, I don’t think we need to despair that the church will crumble away. There will be difficult times, but our hope is in the Lord. (A good Advent reflection, perhaps).

 

[PreVatII]

For those looking for many answers to the original questions in this thread, get a copy of “The Great Facade: Vatican II and the Regime of Novelty in the Roman Catholic Church” by Christopher Ferrara and Thomas Woods, Jr.

Both Ferrara (a lawyer by trade) and Woods (a historian by trade) are NOT SSPX. They and their families attend indult Traditional Latin Masses. So before everyone here gets spun-up and starts screaming, “schism,” please read the book before you comment.

 

[bear06]

PreVatII:

For those looking for many answers to the original questions in this thread, get a copy of “The Great Facade: Vatican II and the Regime of Novelty in the Roman Catholic Church” by Christopher Ferrara and Thomas Woods, Jr.

Both Ferrara (a lawyer by trade) and Woods (a historian by trade) are NOT SSPX. They and their families attend indult Traditional Latin Masses. So before everyone here gets spun-up and starts screaming, “schism,” please read the book before you comment.

For an historian by trade, Woods tends to be quite historically challenged. I’d highly suggest reading books on this issue by Pete Vere. He’s also a Trad and a canon lawyer, who seems to know history far more than Woods. BTW, one not necessarily need to be SSPX to be in schism.

 

[katolik]

bear06:

For an historian by trade, Woods tends to be quite historically challenged. I’d highly suggest reading books on this issue by Pete Vere. He’s also a Trad and a canon lawyer, who seems to know history far more than Woods. BTW, one not necessarily need to be SSPX to be in schism.

I wonder what history degree Vere has… Mr.Woods has a PhD in history and Peter Vere has a master degree in Canon Law, so therefore Vere has more knowledge about history…
Bear, is this what you call “historically challenged”?