And the Gates of Hell will not Prevail Against it

[kleary]

Cath.orProtes.?:

I think you are missing the point of the debate. Heresy would be an “opinion”, assuming the Catholic church is the One true church. If indeed God reformed the church from the cooruptness it had become… The reformation would bring his “church” back to where it should be…thus ensureing the gates of Hell not prevail against it.

The top ten reasons why the Reformation was not God protecting His Church and ensuring the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it:

1. Protestants do not venerate the saints or the Virgin Mary and currently do not even agree with their own fathers who said she was “ever virgin”
2. Protestants do not accept seven Old Testament books held by Christians in the first century to be Scripture and held by the Catholic Church from day one up until the present day to be Scripture.
3. Protestants do not believe in Apostolic Succession.
4. Protestants do not believe in Sacred Tradition.
5. Protestants do not believe in prayer for the dead or Purgatory.

5 Protestants do not believe in the Catholic definition concerning Justification.

1. Protestants do not believe Peter was made head of the Church on earth and the current Pope is his successor.
2. Protestant Churches (lumping all of them together, Lutheran, Baptist what have you) dissagree on much of what Scripture says proving the Protesant theories concerning Holy Scripture and inspriration and interpretation WRONG.
3. Protestants do not believe in the sacrificial nature of the Holy Mass.

And the number one reason why God did not sanction the Protestant Reformation to keep the gates of hell from prevailing over it-

1. Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

Ken

 

[jdc1084]

Originally Jake99:

The world has been following false prophets since the beginning of time. I will pick the ones the world likes the most.

Pope JPII, accomplished nothing in fact the world has come to the brink of destruction on his watch. And that says nothing of turning a blind eye on the clergy sex abuse that was rampant during his reign as False Prophet. He exhalted himself, dressed himself in golden robes and recited a book that his followers do not comply with. I need a leader like that, like I need a shotgun blast to the face.

Ronald Reagan, said nothing did nothing and was not even that good of an actor. “Mr. Gorbachov tear down this wall” is the best thing he is known for, look at the mess that still exists and gets worse by the day in the US. No wonder every new president has to reform everything, one idiot after another trying to repair a system that is highly discouraged by Jesus.

George W. Bush No one in all of time is as dangerous and destructive as he is. When you look at the resources used to fight the economic and military wars and clean up after them, should they ever stop long enough to do so, only Satan could lead a man to manage in such a manner. He and I are opposites and I would love to have you compare the results of my leadership demonstration verses his. I claim to be the Christ what does that make GWB? Please dont wait any longer in turning the other way from GWB. According to the International Energy Agency the world has about ten years before fuel gets very scarce and population explodes. Do the math as Jesus did 2000 years ago and turn away from posession and greed.

The gates of hell wil not prevail if you stand behind the leader you have been promised and pray to every day.

I have never lost a war and I fought more of them than any man has, without firing a shot. Right is Right and I do the Right thing every time. You cannot defeat the truth and the way and the light.

Whoa. Unless you’re trying to make a point, I think both Catholics and protestants here can safely say–what the crud?

 

[kleary]

Jake99:

Thistle,

The world has been following false prophets since the beginning of time. I will pick the ones the world likes the most.

Pope JPII, accomplished nothing in fact the world has come to the brink of destruction on his watch. And that says nothing of turning a blind eye on the clergy sex abuse that was rampant during his reign as False Prophet. He exhalted himself, dressed himself in golden robes and recited a book that his followers do not comply with. I need a leader like that, like I need a shotgun blast to the face.

Ronald Reagan, said nothing did nothing and was not even that good of an actor. “Mr. Gorbachov tear down this wall” is the best thing he is known for, look at the mess that still exists and gets worse by the day in the US. No wonder every new president has to reform everything, one idiot after another trying to repair a system that is highly discouraged by Jesus.

George W. Bush No one in all of time is as dangerous and destructive as he is. When you look at the resources used to fight the economic and military wars and clean up after them, should they ever stop long enough to do so, only Satan could lead a man to manage in such a manner. He and I are opposites and I would love to have you compare the results of my leadership demonstration verses his. I claim to be the Christ what does that make GWB? Please dont wait any longer in turning the other way from GWB. According to the International Energy Agency the world has about ten years before fuel gets very scarce and population explodes. Do the math as Jesus did 2000 years ago and turn away from posession and greed.

The gates of hell wil not prevail if you stand behind the leader you have been promised and pray to every day.

I have never lost a war and I fought more of them than any man has, without firing a shot. Right is Right and I do the Right thing every time. You cannot defeat the truth and the way and the light.

I could not find an “I am puking” smiley -

 

[Cath.orProtes]

Ignatius:

If the Church was wrong until the sixteenth century, then the “gates of hell” did prevail against it.

What about the Orthodox split? Perhaps that hand God’s hand all over it…insuring that the gates of Hell would not prevail. I think I read somewhere on these posts that the Eastern Orthodox Church Consider the RCC the first Protestant Church. Ain’t that a thought?

 

[javelin]

Cath.orProtes.?:

I think you are missing the point of the debate. Heresy would be an “opinion”, assuming the Catholic church is the One true church. If indeed God reformed the church from the cooruptness it had become… The reformation would bring his “church” back to where it should be…thus ensureing the gates of Hell not prevail against it.

In all honesty, I just can’t understand your position – please help me!

You seem to be saying that the Church drifted from what it should have been, and the reformation was God’s way of bringing it “back to where it should be”. Is this a correct statement of your vew?

I guess what I can’t understand is what you think the Church had drifted away from, and how the reformation restored that. It seems to me that if you hold this position, you must be able to show where the Church of 1500 was different from the Church of 100, 200, 300, etc., when you think the erroneous doctrine entered the Church, and then show how the protestant “church” (I put that in quotes only because it isn’t one church, but several, complicating things IMHO) is more like the ancient Church before you think it first “went wrong”.

For me, since all people are sinners, a church must be judged by the rightness of its doctrine. After all, that is how nearly all Christians judge Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, and every other non-Christian religion, right?

So if a Church is defined by its doctrine, then it is not defined by the goodness of its members, the size of its following, or even the particulars of its practice (when they are not tied directly to doctrine, of course).

And that is my difficulty understanding the protestant position in this. Certainly there were bad people in the Church at the time of the reformation, as were there certain activities widespread enough (allegedly) to be called practices that were wrong. But what I don’t see (honestly) is where there was erroneous doctrine, which is the hallmark of any faith.

Now, I’m sure there was doctrine in the Church at the time that you don’t agree with now, but in order to really illustrate your point – that the reformation restored the Church to what it once rightly was – you need to show how the doctrine of the Catholic Church at the time of the reformation conflicted with the doctrine of the earlier Church, and then how the doctrines of the reformation brought those early doctrines back into belief and practice among Christians.

If you can’t do that with real historical information that is decisive, I just can’t see how you can claim the reformation restored anything.

Personally, and this is because I haven’t found any reason yet to believe otherwise, I think the reformation was fueled mostly by secular governments and powers that wanted more than anything to wrest land, wealth, power, and influence from the Catholic Church. Satan is not stupid. He was able to corrupt people in the Church with power and money, thus weakening people’s faith and trust in their leaders, and then exploited that weakness through governments and secular powers to pull people away from the Church. After all, it only takes a small amount of lies for him to convince individuals that they know better than anyone else (pride).

Peace,
javelin

 

[kleary]

Cath.orProtes.?:

What about the Orthodox split? Perhaps that hand God’s hand all over it…insuring that the gates of Hell would not prevail. I think I read somewhere on these posts that the Eastern Orthodox Church Consider the RCC the first Protestant Church. Ain’t that a thought?

In that case all of Christianity would have been like the Orthodox now and then new things come in after them.

The Orthodox do not believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as indicated in the Nicene Creed. They also do not believe in the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome over the Eastern Church.

However the primacy of the Roman Pontiff is clearly seen in first century epistles by Pope Clement who re addressed the problems in the Church in Corinth originally addressed by St. Paul- even though Clement was not the Bishop of Corinth.

Ken

 

[Sparcz]

The True Church was written in the Bible…Roman 16:16
there is no Catholic church written in the Bible,

How to know which is the true Church of Christ?

1st Observe the Doctrines… it is Biblical or Not?
2nd the Bible also Testified the False prophet and Doctrines which is Visible to us if we Observe the Church Practices and the mark of the Anti-Christ or Mark of the Beast.

Example in I Timothy 4:1-3 and Revelation 13:16-20

 

[Sparcz]

Fear not, that’s no wrench! What you said above that I bolded illustrates the main point – it is Truth that will destroy those gates. So, if the Church is to prevail against them, the Church *must *continue in Truth. If the Church loses the Truth, it has no power over the gates of Hell. The absence of Truth is deception, and that is where Satan, and the gates of Hell, derive their power.

So, the Church must persevere in Truth – it is Jesus’ promise.

And He definitely keeps His Word.

Peace,
javelin

Jesus Statement only for the True Church which He Build… Jesus Statement only for those Who purchased with His Blood…
Jesus Statement only to those who believed in Him and Do his Will.
Not for those who make False Doctrine and man made Teachings.

 

[Church_Militant]

The True Church was written in the Bible…Roman 16:16
there is no Catholic church written in the Bible,

Really? Then I suggest that you check the Greek text of Acts 9:31 where it is translated as “the church throughout all”. The Greek reads as follows: η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου και τη παρακλησει του αγιου πνευματος επληθυνετο “εκκλησια καθ ολης” is ekklesia kath olos… “Catholic Church”.

How to know which is the true Church of Christ?

1st Observe the Doctrines… it is Biblical or Not?

Is that doctrine right there Biblical? The idea that everything that Christian believe and practice must come from the Bible? No, it is not. I suggest that you listen carefully to this Bible study.
Sola Scriptura - The Bible Alone?

 Does the Bible support "The Bible Alone"?

2nd the Bible also Testified the False prophet and Doctrines which is Visible to us if we Observe the Church Practices and the mark of the Anti-Christ or Mark of the Beast.

Sure it does, but that doesn’t qualify for the host of twisted interpretations that are preached throughout the world today.

Example in I Timothy 4:1-3

So according to you, Christians should not fast? Yet the New Testament shows us many places where this is done and is still practiced by many believers, Catholic or otherwise to this day!

So… you oppose celibate clergy? Then you oppose the very words of Our Lord Jesus Christ and St. Paul. Priestly celibacy is unBiblical. NOT!

and Revelation 13:16-20

That’s funny…my New Testament seem to indicate that that passage ends at verse 18, see? 16**17 And that no man might buy or sell, but he that hath the character, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six. And he shall make all, both little and great, rich and poor, freemen and bondmen, to have a character in their right hand, or on their foreheads.

Jesus Statement only for the True Church which He Build… Jesus Statement only for those Who purchased with His Blood…
Jesus Statement only to those who believed in Him and Do his Will.
Not for those who make False Doctrine and man made Teachings.

Well, so far you have proved that you “make False Doctrine and man made Teachings”, so I’d look into that if I was you. God bless you.

 

[Memaw]

I am sure this will be heavily attacked. But who said “how” God was going to keep his church from succumbing to the gates of hell? Perhaps in ensuring the gates of Hell not prevail against his “church”, he sanctioned the Reformation.

I see no where in the Bible that says “how” he will do it or “when” he would do it…it could have been years after heretical views infiltrated the “church”.

Thought just occurred to me.

Boy Now I have heard everything!, That is really stretching it by golly.
2,000 years of Catholic history while keeping safe ALL the truths Christ taught the Apostles, if that isn’t proof enough well, what will it take, another 2,000 years??? Just stick around and you’ll see whose still here.
Lets just step back a bit and take a good look at history, For over 2,000 years the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ, has “Kept the Faith,” all seven Sacraments, in spite of the problems from within and without. As someone once said, If us sinfull Catholics can’t destroy the Church from within, what makes you think you can do it from without?? (History will show that many have tried.) So lets take a look at the protestant revolt, its only a bit over 500 years old. Ever single protestant denomination, and there are approx. 40,000, of them by now, can trace their beginning to a man or woman. (Check this out for yourself.) Protestantism has divided and divided and divided so many times and has weakened on its moral values to the point of accepting birth control, (where once the major ones wouldn’t,) allowing divorce and remarriage over and over, accepting abortion as a “choice”, accepting homosexuality as another “lifestyle”. Bashing and spreading lies about Christs TRUE Church, the one HE promised would NEVER teach error. They have turned their back on most of the Sacraments, (baptism, some have even watered that down to the point where its very questionable. Marriage to them is not considered a Sacrament and they do allow divorce and remarriage) Those two Sacraments do not necessarily require a validly ordained priest. The Catholic Church can trace its ordination back to the Apostles. Doesn’t matter what kind of a story others weave around themselves, the TRUTH is the TRUTH, can’t change that!!!
Christ promised that HIS Church would be here till the “End of Time.” And we will be so, why not give yourself a chance to learn more about the True Church and stop all this other bashing. The truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it and a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.