And the Gates of Hell will not Prevail Against it

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jdc1084 said:
Thanks for the responses. That’s what I’m here for, to learn.
So speaking of learning, when I talked about infallibility, I was only saying what I have heard other Catholics on this forum talking about. At first, I thought yall believed the whole person (priest, bishop, whatever) was infalliable. Then I heard that the person isn’t, but what they interpret is. So now if both the person *and *
what they interpret are falliable, then what’s infallible? Please just help me to understand, as I’m very confused about this :confused:

The pope is infalliable when he is speaking on matters of faith and morals. This is because he cannot teach anything which contradicts the magisterium of the Catholic Church which it has received from the apostles. Individual priests and bishops or even groups of them can be wrong if they teach what is opposed to the magisterium.
I don’t understand what you mean here. You say ‘no one is saved outside the Catholic Church’ but then it sounds like the Catholic Church is only the ‘normaltive’ means? Shouldn’t it be the only means if you say no one is saved outside of it? Also, what do you mean by Christian cooperation and material heretic? What would be considered Christian cooperation by the Catholic Church? Sorry again for all the questions, but I sincerely want to understand what you’re talking about.
When a person is baptized they become part of the body of Christ, thus they become part of the Catholic Church. Christ has only one body and it is His bride the Church, and He is the head. Although a person may not be in full communion with the Church it is because of the Church and her prayers that others are saved. Also we must work toward our salvation with trembling and fear, so we must always try to grow in and become more faithful to the truth, I say this so that you dont get the wrong idea about what ive said and think someone is saved if they dont want to be.
I realize that you’re probably only talking about some Baptists. I’ve not doubt that there are some out there who would say that. But you always get a few nuts in the bunch. But for what it’s worth, my family has been mostly Baptist for years. And we have moved around quite a few times, so we’ve had the chance to see several different Baptist churches. Yes, they do prefer to have the full immersion Baptism, but if you have been sprinkled at a previous location, you’re not going to be kicked out of the church. You’re considered a member of the body of Christ, the same as someone who has been fully immersed. The important thing is the heart change that takes place. Who cares if you get a little water splashed on you or you get dunked in a tub. It’s what the action symbolizes. Now, sprinkling a baby is something that we don’t generally agree with, but that’s a differnt topic, which would best be saved for another thread.
Did not God require babies to be circumcised, even though they could not give personal consent to God? It is the duty of the parents to teach them truth for their salvation, not to say “ok now kids heaven or hell whatll it be” 🙂 . Remember Jesus said I have not come to abolish but to fulfill.
 
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dumspirospero:
That makes no sense at all…in attempting to save The ONe True Church…God decides to proceed with the reformation and enabling people to be led astray by heresy and sinfulness…
I think you are missing the point of the debate. Heresy would be an “opinion”, assuming the Catholic church is the One true church. If indeed God reformed the church from the cooruptness it had become… The reformation would bring his “church” back to where it should be…thus ensureing the gates of Hell not prevail against it.
 
This is my first post ever–quite an accomplishment for someone who is still prefers paper cups and a string to the telephone. I must say, I am suprised at the lack of etiquette on these forums. Singinbeauty, this one’s for you: Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers…” I can see Christ in you. Sherlock, for you: II Timothy 2:24-25 “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition…”

Reading through this entire dialog (I supposed the correct terminolgy is “thread”…that’s what I sew with!), I was reminded of Jesus’ commendation and admonition to the church at Ephesus in Rev. 2. He said, “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars, and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless, I have this against you, that you have left your first love.”

What is your first love? We can become so wrapped up in the work of the kingdom that we don’t have time for the King, and the King is what we’re supposed to all have in common. I’ve never heard anything so un-Christian as the sarcastic squabbling in this dialog by some. I do think it’s spiritually healthy to discuss issues, but this sounds more like an attack mode whereby people are intent on winning an argument for the sake of winning–often without considering what a person actually said!

Ah, well. Such is my initiation into the world of cyberspace! Now, let me see if I can figure out how to use that little quote box.
Code:
Did not God require babies to be circumcised, even though they could not give personal consent to God? It is the duty of the parents to teach them truth for their salvation, not to say "ok now kids heaven or hell whatll it be"
(I hope I did that right.) The circumcision of babies was simply given as a sign of the OT covenant God made with Abraham. It had nothing to do with the babies’ salvation. They still made sacrificial offerings for families, including their babies. I enjoyed the example as it was an interesting thought, but I don’t think it is comparing apples to apples since baptizing speaks of a person’s salvation. Since salvation comes by grace through faith in Christ, babies aren’t capable of making such a cognizant decision. Absolutely parents are to teach their children God’s Word (Proverbs 22:6), but we can’t make their decisions for them.

I do appreciate those of you who are truly presenting your opinions/research in a amicable manner. Kudos to those of you. I suppose this forum just brings the teacher out in me. If we weren’t in cyberspace, I’d have some of you serve detention with me and write, “I will communicate in a more Christ-like manner” a hundred times on the whiteboard!
 
If anybody wants to discuss infant baptism, please start a new thread so this one doesn’t get shut down! 🙂
 
Dear llc53,
Since you used my quote, I will assume you meant me when you were talking about uncharitable people. But, If not I still find your post to be quite uncharitable myself. I nor anyone I have read was attempting to demean anyone, at least we never considered the people who we were talking to, to be so nieve as to need detention. I dont remember anyone else talking down to others like you have. You have to remember this is cyberspace and there is no voice tones or body language to gage things by. And, since part of charity is giving someone the benefit of the doubt, I think you may need to reread these and see that what most are trying to do is to answer questions as truthfully as can be to help others understand. The one thing though that I bet most of us know is that conversion comes from God and not us. I doubt any of us feels that they can draw someone to Truth unless God calls them first.

Peace in Christ,
 
Cath.orProtes.?:
I think you are missing the point of the debate. Heresy would be an “opinion”, assuming the Catholic church is the One true church. If indeed God reformed the church from the cooruptness it had become… The reformation would bring his “church” back to where it should be…thus ensureing the gates of Hell not prevail against it.
First of all…
…assuming the Catholic church is the One true church.<<<
Assume for a moment that it is not. Okay, there is no RCC and no Protestant churches. Exactly what does that leave left as far as a church that goes back to the first Pentecost?

<<< If indeed God reformed the church from the cooruptness it had become…<<<

How had the church become corrupt? Such a statement infers that everybody within the church from top to bottom was corrupt. Can you give me some idea as to who was corrupt and in what way?
The reformation would bring his “church” back to where it should be…<<<
I just can’t understand why people can’t get this into their heads. How many times do I have to repeat this?

The reformation reformed nothing!

The “reformation” was a political movement disguised as religious reform. It’s purpose was solely to plunder the church. It split the unity of the church, started numerous civil wars in western European countries, and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Anyone who would even consider the notion that God would sanction such an unholy mess to somehow “reform” His church should have their head examined.

Thal59
 
Heavens to Betsy, tdanh26! Chill out! You assumed wrong. Your post I thought was quite well-mannered. You’re someone I would commend for presenting your point in a amicable fashion. The detention remark was meant to be humorous–an attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Sorry you were unable to detect that. It seems strangely bizarre that I even have to explain that, but I’m learning–no humor on this site. Sorry, tdanh26. Hope you’re not too greatly offended.

As far as my post being uncharitable–again, apologies if you so perceived it to be. But I am not a champion of sarcasm, and contrary to you, I have read posts that were extremely demeaning by use of sarcasm and exaggeration. It was not my intention to demean any person or their opinion, only the tactics employed.
 
Just like when the Jewish religion was split because the Jews refused to believe that Jesus was who He claimed? We would be of the jewish faith if they hadn’t been so boneheaded and believed.
Interesting point. Any comments out there?
 
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llc53:
Interesting point. Any comments out there?
For one, it was God Himself who came to declare the truth at that time. During the reformation, it was Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Henry VIII.
 
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Lazerlike42:
For one, it was God Himself who came to declare the truth at that time. During the reformation, it was Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Henry VIII.
Wow! So God declared the truth at that time. YOu are then implying that Lauther, Calvin, Zwingli and Henry VIII declared the truth later. Sorry, it just does not follow because the four people you mentioned broke from and changed the views of the RCC, established by Jesus and seemed to be working just fine with the same doctrines as established by the aspostles.

Henery wanted to divorce his wife, the pope said no, so he said I will make my own church and the King makes the rules. Interstingly the current monarchy of the Anglican Church does not look highly on Divorce, hence why the Queen could not attend Charles wedding, guess we need to have Charles become King to change the Anglican church views again! 🙂

Luther did see some corruption going on in the church, but instead of helping to fix the situation he decised he could do better. he broke fromt he church and then changed the bible, ommitted several books to support the new theology being stirred up by the society of the Solases. Luther did not actually invent this theology, he only promoted the already circulating theory of a group of high thinkers. Kind of like the Scientist now arguing with each other over Evolution, Intelligent Design, or Creationalism.

Calvin promoted the predestination theories that goes against the free-will doctrines of the RCC. Calvin was part of the over thinkers group and wanted to find a human ability to logically deal with God and his motives. Sorry Calvin, God is well beyond our capabilty of fully understanding in our current state. Also the whole elect thing. This does not sound like the merciful God who wants to save all of his lambs. How about the repentent sinner? Why bring missionaries to teach the word of God if they are not part of the elect? I am, sorry the term, playing “devil’s advocate” here.

As for the other person, I am drawing a blank and admit some ignorance. I have only been studying the different Protestant denominations and the reasoning for their split from the RCC as a hobby and I have some young children to tend to most of the time. I am not trying to slander but give some interesting points to the debate.
 
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kp1:
Wow! So God declared the truth at that time. YOu are then implying that Lauther, Calvin, Zwingli and Henry VIII declared the truth later. Sorry, it just does not follow because the four people you mentioned broke from and changed the views of the RCC, established by Jesus and seemed to be working just fine with the same doctrines as established by the aspostles.
You misunderstand :p. My point is that the Jews whom followed Christ are not analogous to the Christians who followed the reformers. The Jews who followed Christ followed God Himself, whom had the power and authority to teach the truth. The Christians who followed the reformers followed only men whom possesed no authority over God.
 
Your point was not lost on me, Lazerlike42. Thanks for the comment–something to mull over.
 
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Lazerlike42:
You misunderstand :p. My point is that the Jews whom followed Christ are not analogous to the Christians who followed the reformers. The Jews who followed Christ followed God Himself, whom had the power and authority to teach the truth. The Christians who followed the reformers followed only men whom possesed no authority over God.
Sorry, I thought you were going somewhere different with this! I see my misunderstanding here, please accept my apology! 🙂
 
Just like when the Jewish religion was split because the Jews refused to believe that Jesus was who He claimed? We would be of the jewish faith if they hadn’t been so boneheaded and believed.
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llc53:
Interesting point. Any comments out there?
It would be quite a fallacy to confuse Covenant and “reform,” or more appropriately, schism, as these two events are radically different. Christ was the coming of the Messiah, the Son of Man whom Isaiah had so eloquently prophesied. As such, it is only natural that many Jews would not recognize this due to the hardness of their hearts. Also, it was not the Messianic Jews who broke away, but rather, they were no longer welcome to worship in the Temple and synogogues. It was an unfortunate but necessesary step that had to be taken. On top of this, as revealed in the debates between Peter and Paul, it also became apparent that due to the universal nature of the newly expanded and fullfilled Covenant that the Gentiles, especially distant regional Gentiles, had great difficulty in becoming Jews to then follow Christ. Since Christ had abolished the old Law and became the fullfillment of it, no longer where dieting, cicumcision, and other such related laws binding on Christians. With this, one could be “Christian” without first being “Jewish.” All this being said, through nessesitation by no longer being welcomed in the existing worship spaces, in combination with the phenomenon of non-Jewish followers of Jesus, the emergence of “Christianity,” or as stated by Ignatius of Antioch shortly after the death of the Apostles, the “Catholic Church,” emerged as an independent religious entity.

The “reformation” or “Luther’s schismatic initiation” had altogether different goals. The goals of Luther, for example, where not only for the Church to clean up some of the abuses that were going on (MANY devoted Catholics, including Erasmus and other Humanists, sought the handling of abuses but knew that leaving the Church was certainly not the right way to go about this) but also to change the Deposit of the Faith, or the infallible revelation of Truth that the Church had maintained for over 1,500 years. Fundamentally, he wanted to compromise the Church at her very core. If the Church was wrong in many of its teachings, it had no legitimate claim to authority. Unfortunately for Luther, as proved by his very limited scope of thought, the “truth” that he possessed had only its basis in the Bible. He thought “If I could just give everyone access to the Bible, and my adulterated version of the Bible at that, everyone would realize that MY theology is correct.” Poor Luther didn’t anticipate the inevitable. As soon as the authority of interpretation of Sacred Scripture was handed to individuals, and as soon as Sacred Tradition was thrown out the window, suddenly the Holy Spirit seemed to be “inspiring” everyone and their mother to make contradictory truths claims. Luther, upon realizing this, established HIS interpretation of scripture as being normative while everyone else, and has since, did likewise.

Martin Luther, Huldrich Zwingli, John Calvin, Henry VIII, John Knox, John Weslyen, Pat Roberts (;)), the list goes on… and on… and on…

If you want a REAL reformation, look to the Council of Trent where they cleaned up the abuses and REINFORCED and REITERATED, rather than “reformed,” God’s beautiful gift to us known as the Deposit of the Faith. There was already strong movement within the Church to clean up the abuses, it is too bad that when a few make strong attempts to modify God’s revealed Truth that it has to hurt the rest of His children.

Neither scandal or schism ever brought down the Church. Mother Church stands strong and visible, a City on a Hill, guided by God’s Revelation through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, standing for Truth and Justice, and we hope that our seperated brothers and sisters, whether through seperated lineage or an unfortunately direct falling out, would come back to Christ’s One Church. Although many churches, Protestant and non-Christian alike, have rightful claim to “some” truths, the Wholeness of Truth can only be found in Christ’s established Church which was formed by Jesus’ handing Peter the Keys and initiated by the coming down of the Holy Spirit during Pentacost after Jesus’ glorious Ascension into Heaven. We miss you, please come back. 😦
 
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CollegeCatholic:
It would be quite a fallacy to confuse Covenant and “reform,” or more appropriately, schism, as these two events are radically different. Christ was the coming of the Messiah, the Son of Man whom Isaiah had so eloquently prophesied. As such, it is only natural that many Jews would not recognize this due to the hardness of their hearts. Also, it was not the Messianic Jews who broke away, but rather, they were no longer welcome to worship in the Temple and synogogues. It was an unfortunate but necessesary step that had to be taken. On top of this, as revealed in the debates between Peter and Paul, it also became apparent that due to the universal nature of the newly expanded and fullfilled Covenant that the Gentiles, especially distant regional Gentiles, had great difficulty in becoming Jews to then follow Christ. Since Christ had abolished the old Law and became the fullfillment of it, no longer where dieting, cicumcision, and other such related laws binding on Christians. With this, one could be “Christian” without first being “Jewish.” All this being said, through nessesitation by no longer being welcomed in the existing worship spaces, in combination with the phenomenon of non-Jewish followers of Jesus, the emergence of “Christianity,” or as stated by Ignatius of Antioch shortly after the death of the Apostles, the “Catholic Church,” emerged as an independent religious entity.

The “reformation” or “Luther’s schismatic initiation” had altogether different goals. The goals of Luther, for example, where not only for the Church to clean up some of the abuses that were going on (MANY devoted Catholics, including Erasmus and other Humanists, sought the handling of abuses but knew that leaving the Church was certainly not the right way to go about this) but also to change the Deposit of the Faith, or the infallible revelation of Truth that the Church had maintained for over 1,500 years. Fundamentally, he wanted to compromise the Church at her very core. If the Church was wrong in many of its teachings, it had no legitimate claim to authority. Unfortunately for Luther, as proved by his very limited scope of thought, the “truth” that he possessed had only its basis in the Bible. He thought “If I could just give everyone access to the Bible, and my adulterated version of the Bible at that, everyone would realize that MY theology is correct.” Poor Luther didn’t anticipate the inevitable. As soon as the authority of interpretation of Sacred Scripture was handed to individuals, and as soon as Sacred Tradition was thrown out the window, suddenly the Holy Spirit seemed to be “inspiring” everyone and their mother to make contradictory truths claims. Luther, upon realizing this, established HIS interpretation of scripture as being normative while everyone else, and has since, did likewise.

Martin Luther, Huldrich Zwingli, John Calvin, Henry VIII, John Knox, John Weslyen, Pat Roberts (;)), the list goes on… and on… and on…

If you want a REAL reformation, look to the Council of Trent where they cleaned up the abuses and REINFORCED and REITERATED, rather than “reformed,” God’s beautiful gift to us known as the Deposit of the Faith. There was already strong movement within the Church to clean up the abuses, it is too bad that when a few make strong attempts to modify God’s revealed Truth that it has to hurt the rest of His children.
Beautifully stated!
 
Here is another take on the matter.

When it was necessary for God to bring about the truth of His kingdom, He accomplished this through the hardness of hearts of the contemporary Jews. Due to their disbelief, Christ was crucified and the kingdom of God came into being. Similarly, the proper reformation (known as the counter-reformation) of the God’s Church was accomplished through the hardness of heart of the reformers whom left her. God works good in all things.
 
Lazerlike42–I haven’t given this as much thought as I need to (I’m supposed to be working on household finances–yuck). However, as I record checks on Quicken, one thought keeps popping up in my mind: Christ did physically leave the world and promised the Holy Spirit would come and guide/instruct us in everything we had been taught. Because He physically left, the reformers indeed did not have the advantage of direct instruction through Christ. However, we were told the Holy Spirit would instruct us. In theory, the reformers could claim the Holy Spirit guided them, to say…stay true to the truth (not trying to be offensive). This, of course, is the same wall we run up against when witnessing to Mormons: God told me so–but I can claim God told me something contrary. What it seems to boil down to is by what standard do we determine truth? Protestants would say the Bible is that standard alone as the inspired Word. I’m not trying to debate the fact that Roman Catholics claim papal authority, tradition, etc. Not entering that debate that I’m sure would be reserved for another thread, could not this be a valid Protestant claim in and of itself–that truth was still testified to–only through the Holy Spirit instead of Jesus? Would this not be the same sort of communication and guidance in truth that the Pope, for instance, would claim to have with God as His representative here on earth?

I hope the questions I’m asking are not lost on you. I’m not looking to go off on a tangent about related topics, but am trying to direct my questions to this specific possibility. (I’m also learning how sensitive and sometimes trigger-happy posters can be! You don’t seem to be that way.) I look forward to your response while I continue to ponder this issue. Thanks mucho!
 
I see a “bunch of stuff” has popped up on this topic. I haven’t read any of these posts, of course, while submitting my last questions. Answers may already abound! Thanks. I’ll read through this after I finish my task at hand–begrudgingly. I just didn’t want anybody thinking I was ignoring what has been submitted. 🙂
 
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llc53:
Lazerlike42–I haven’t given this as much thought as I need to (I’m supposed to be working on household finances–yuck). However, as I record checks on Quicken, one thought keeps popping up in my mind: Christ did physically leave the world and promised the Holy Spirit would come and guide/instruct us in everything we had been taught. Because He physically left, the reformers indeed did not have the advantage of direct instruction through Christ. However, we were told the Holy Spirit would instruct us. In theory, the reformers could claim the Holy Spirit guided them, to say…stay true to the truth (not trying to be offensive). This, of course, is the same wall we run up against when witnessing to Mormons: God told me so–but I can claim God told me something contrary. What it seems to boil down to is by what standard do we determine truth? Protestants would say the Bible is that standard alone as the inspired Word. I’m not trying to debate the fact that Roman Catholics claim papal authority, tradition, etc. Not entering that debate that I’m sure would be reserved for another thread, could not this be a valid Protestant claim in and of itself–that truth was still testified to–only through the Holy Spirit instead of Jesus? Would this not be the same sort of communication and guidance in truth that the Pope, for instance, would claim to have with God as His representative here on earth?

I hope the questions I’m asking are not lost on you. I’m not looking to go off on a tangent about related topics, but am trying to direct my questions to this specific possibility. (I’m also learning how sensitive and sometimes trigger-happy posters can be! You don’t seem to be that way.) I look forward to your response while I continue to ponder this issue. Thanks mucho!
I unfortunately do not have the time to provide an entirely adequate reply, however I will provide a quick statement.

The difficulty with the idea of the Holy Spirit inspiring the reformers lies in several areas. Firstly is the fact that the reformers disagreed substantially with one another. If the Holy Spirit inspired these men, then the Spirit inspired them each with doctrine that opposed one another. There is but one truth. If the Holy Spirit inspired the reformers, then it inspired one of them to truth and the others to error. This is not possible.

Therefore, we must conclude that if the Spirit inspired the reformation, It did one of two things. Either the Spirit inspired one of the reformers, whereas the others were actually pushing forth their own ideas, or the Spirit inspired all of the reformers but in different areas. For instance, perhaps the Spirit only truly inspired Calvin. This means that Luther and Zwingli were not inspired. Or, perhaps the Spirit inspired Luther’s understanding of original sin, whereas It inspired Calvin’s doctrine of predestination, and when it came to Zwingli It inspired his understanding of the atonement.

The difficulty here lies in the question of who is the one that the Spirit inspired, and how do we know? If the Spirit inspired each of them with regards to different doctrines, the question becomes even more complicated. Finally, if either of these events happened, then this also means that the Spirit did not inspire the Christians who lived for 1500 years prior. So the idea that the Spirit inspired the reformers presents two problems:


  1. *]How does one determine which reformation doctrine of which reformer was inspired and which were not?
    *]Why did God choose to allow His Church to teach error for 1500 years before inspiring anybody to teach the truth?

    These are surely difficult questions to answer. The other point that I would make concerns the Bible. It is important to note that when Christ promises the Spirit of Truth, He makes the promise to the Apostles, who alone are with Him. It is a common mistake among Christians to take every passage of the Bible as though it is a direct instruction to them. Thus, when Christ says to sell your coat and carry a sword, some (though admittedly fewer in this case :p) take this as an instruction to them, as opposed to the persons to whom Christ was speaking at the time, and purchase swords. Similarly, when Christ promises the Spirit of Truth, many take this as a direct promsie to them without taking into account whom Christ was speaking to at the time.
 
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