"and upon this rock I will build my church"

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That there are divisions in His Church, caused by human sin, does not mean His Spirit is not with each of us. That Jesus directly addresses Peter in conferring the keys does not mean they were his and his alone. He received them for Christ’s Church. That the see in Rome is considered the chair of St. Peter does not make St. Peter the exclusive property of those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. We, as Lutherans, also claim the apostolic teachings, the power to bind and loose, the keys to the kingdom, which He gave to His Church.

Totally different? The Church is the foundation and pillar of truth, human divisions notwithstanding, be they the divisions of the Great Schism, the Reformation, or those divisions that followed, primarily out of the Reformed and radical reformations.

How do you know?

Jon
When Paul got to Damascus and was inspired by the Holy Spirit he says that he needed to speak with Peter since he was the leader of the Apostles to be able to profess what was given to him. Paul tells us to be united, 44,000 different denominations is not being united,
 
When Paul got to Damascus and was inspired by the Holy Spirit he says that he needed to speak with Peter since he was the leader of the Apostles to be able to profess what was given to him. Paul tells us to be united, 44,000 different denominations is not being united,
Simple. Obvious. Makes sense.👍 I can’t wait for the response.

It drives some folks crazy when you actually use scripture to prove basis for the Catholic Church.:eek:
 
=JonNC;10433398] That Jesus directly addresses Peter in conferring the keys does not mean they were his and his alone.
Who else did Jesus give the keys to?
He received them for Christ’s Church.
Of which Peter was the head
That the see in Rome is considered the chair of St. Peter does not make St. Peter the exclusive property of those in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Yes it does
We, as Lutherans, also claim the apostolic teachings, the power to bind and loose, the keys to the kingdom, which He gave to His Church.
Can you name a Lutheran that can trace their ordination back to an apostle?.
Can you give me an example of how the Lutheran’s bind and loose on earth what is bound and loosed in heaven? Which of the Lutheran denominations can bind and loose?

JohnNC earlier you said “The wind blows where it wishes”

Paul said that Christ gave us apostles, prophets, pastors so that the Church would be built up “until we obtain the unity of the faith…….so that we may no longer be children tossed to and from and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the cunning of men by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.”

Every wind of doctrine has spit Protestantism in thousands of sects all disagreeing with one another.
 
But he did started Church, Paul even says so. Paul was the person whom by the Bible we can see that he was everywhere in the region preaching about the 1 Church. Just tell me if Paul says, “Imitate me as I imitate God, follow the traditions which we the apostles have given you”. Paul tells us to be united, I mean 44,000 denominations/ groups/ sects does not sound united, on the contrary it sounds that were doing the total opposite of what God instituted through the apostles.
Oh I agree with you. But there are some that would use the words you typed against the Holy Catholic Church 😃
 
Oh I agree with you. But there are some that would use the words you typed against the Holy Catholic Church 😃
Its so unfortunate but your 100% correct. they would use those verses from the Bible agaisnt the Catholic Church.
 
=Third Day;10433707]Who else did Jesus give the keys to?
Of which Peter was the head
He gave them to His Church. Peter was clearly a leader, but they were not exclusively his keys.
Yes it does
No, it doesn’t.
Can you name a Lutheran that can trace their ordination back to an apostle?.
Can you give me an example of how the Lutheran’s bind and loose on earth what is bound and loosed in heaven? Which of the Lutheran denominations can bind and loose?
There are lots of them in Scandinavia, and in the Porvoo communion, and even those who have received through “Dutch Touch” and Anglican lines, but that isn’t the single way we are linked to the Apostles.
When I confess, our pastor states, “As a called and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
JohnNC earlier you said “The wind blows where it wishes”
Paul said that Christ gave us apostles, prophets, pastors so that the Church would be built up “until we obtain the unity of the faith…….so that we may no longer be children tossed to and from and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the cunning of men by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.”
Every wind of doctrine has spit Protestantism in thousands of sects all disagreeing with one another.
I have no control over what protestants do. Yes, unity is Christ’s call of us, one Church, one faith, one Baptism. And it is sad, and I’d say unacceptable, that we are divided.

Jon
 
He gave them to His Church. Peter was clearly a leader, but they were not exclusively his keys.
How do you gather that from scripture when Peter was the recipient and not all the apostles?
If it were to the whole Church, wouldn’t Jesus have granted the Keys to all the apostles, and even among the other disciples? Where do you see that in scripture?
 
How do you gather that from scripture when Peter was the recipient and not all the apostles?
If it were to the whole Church, wouldn’t Jesus have granted the Keys to all the apostles, and even among the other disciples? Where do you see that in scripture?
For starters:
John 20 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Jon
 
For starters:
John 20 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Jon
That doesn’t mention any keys.
 
That doesn’t mention any keys.
Matthew 16 says I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

He repeats essentially the same phrase to all the apostles in John 20.

Jon
 
Matthew 16 says I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

He repeats essentially the same phrase to all the apostles in John 20.

Jon
That is about the authority of defining doctrine, not authority of governance over the Church. Which applies to the cumulative body of the Bishops, and not the laity.
 
Matthew 16 says I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

He repeats essentially the same phrase to all the apostles in John 20.

Jon
essentially but not exactly. a subtle but important difference.we shouldn’t assume… you know what that makes you and me…
 
essentially but not exactly. a subtle but important difference.we shouldn’t assume… you know what that makes you and me…
Then we should not assume that Christ, in giving the keys to Peter, did not intend the keys for the Church, but simply one of the apostles.

Jon
 
In Matt 16:18 What Church, was Jesus Christ, referring to over 2000 years ago? And where do you think it is today?

Ufam Tobie
He was referring to the “rock” of Peter’s confession. All those who confess similarly to Peter’s are part of the church and that church is scattered throughout the world today. It does not correspond to any one singular denomination.
 
Then we should not assume that Christ, in giving the keys to Peter, did not intend the keys for the Church, but simply one of the apostles.

Jon
Yeah we can. He said “about that Church I am founding, you are Peter here are the keys dude.”

The problem with your argument is that you have to prove that your heretical interpretation is correct.
 
He was referring to the “rock” of Peter’s confession. All those who confess similarly to Peter’s are part of the church and that church is scattered throughout the world today. It does not correspond to any one singular denomination.
From what authority do you get the interpretation of this “confession” being the “rock?”
 
In Matt 16:18 What Church, was Jesus Christ, referring to over 2000 years ago? And where do you think it is today?

Ufam Tobie
The Church that Jesus Christ left for our salvation! The One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church. The truth is…every time you read, “The Church” in the New Testament it is referring to The Catholic Church! Be honest honest with yourself about this. Seek the truth. The Church that Jesus Christ Left for you is your inheritance from Jesus! Do not reject your inheritance, embrace it! 🙂
 
From Dominus Iesus:

*The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ… which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57
  1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60
On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67*

Let us (Catholics) not forget that God does work in these Christians communities as well and that it is our job to present the fullness of truth from the fruits of our Faith through our Lord Christ Jesus.

:highprayer:
 
Among the congregation of saints, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered, there is His Church.

Jon
So what exactly did Christ build then? Why did he have to choose Peter? Why not just say it to all the Apostles?

And while you are answering that, who has the power to bind on heaven and earth now? All of the “Christians”?
 
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