And We Wonder Why

[AltarMan]

Sometimes when I wonder about the current state of the Church in the USA and its future, I like to ponder on posts (NOT from CA!) like the following:

Initial Posting: “I am looking for suggestions/ideas for an activity pack to take to Mass. My daughter is almost 4 so Mass tends to be not very exciting for her. I would like to find activities that she can do that would help her learn more about why we go to Mass. All suggestions are appreciated.”

One Response: “I usually let Isabel “read” the G&P & the missalette. Normally I bring crayons or a pen/pencil and paper for her to write to us. Usually I bring a little juice or a snack, we have some fat free/sugar free animal crackers.”

 

[GoLatin]

Food at Mass!:bigyikes:

 

[stbruno]

Get her a golden book that allows her to follow the parts of the mass in pictures. Kids love their prayer book. Bring her early or stay after to go up near the sanctuary so she can see the altar and tabernacle. My kids loved it and now they are college age. During their earlier years, they were altar servers and understood so much more what is going on during the mass from their earlier teaching of the parts of the mass. At four, she is probably wide open to questions and short answers. Keep the food at home. Pray always! And keep bringing your children to church. Develop good habits early and they will have the necessary seeds planted to continue to come as they grow older.A blessed Advent to you!

 

[AltarMan]

stbruno:

Get her a golden book that allows her to follow the parts of the mass in pictures. Kids love their prayer book. Bring her early or stay after** to go up near the sanctuary so she can see the altar and tabernacle. **My kids loved it and now they are college age. During their earlier years, they were altar servers and understood so much more what is going on during the mass from their earlier teaching of the parts of the mass. At four, she is probably wide open to questions and short answers. Keep the food at home. Pray always! And keep bringing your children to church. Develop good habits early and they will have the necessary seeds planted to continue to come as they grow older.A blessed Advent to you!

Superb (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[djrakowski]

We’re just in the process of converting, and our children are struggling to get used to the restrictions of mass. To make matters worse, two of our children have autistic spectrum disorders.

On Sunday (11/27), we were in the cry room as usual, but it was more crowded than we’ve ever seen before. There were lots of 2-3 year old kids sort-of running wild, each carrying a small container of food. Our son is allergic to gluten, which is contained in, oh, just about everything.

One of the little guys was crawling under the pews, where the air vents are located. He was eating some sort of ultra-stinky crackers - so stinky, in fact, that our middle daughter was gagging and nearly threw up. Our son started sneezing almost immediately, and got a nice, splotchy red rash on his face. Yup, he had a reaction to the gluten in the air. And the physical reaction is only half of it. Typically, after an infraction, he regresses into severely autistic behaviors (hand flapping, inattention, toe walking, short temper, non-compliant).

I have one question: is it this way everywhere folks use a cry room? We don’t treat it any differently than church - the same rules apply in the cry room as in the main church. Why do so many folks see the cry room as an excuse to break the rules of church?

Keep in mind this is at a very orthodox and well-regarded parish, and that there are signs on the entrance and exit doors of the cry room reminding folks not to eat in church. What gives?

 

[pira114]

Having children with special needs is a separate matter altogether.

For children without special needs, they should be expected to follow the same rules as everyone. Is it easy? Heck no!! I have small children as well. It is an extreme challenge sometimes to keep them in line, but I will not resort to letting them eat, color, or play in Church. I don’t really have a problem with a book that helps kids follow the Mass, but that’s about it.

I think Altermans point was that too many people have given in to the whims of their children and decided not to make them participate in the Mass. Not acceptable in my book. I can see if we’re talking about an infant. But at about 3 years and older, you should start making them participate. The ealier you start them, the easier it is. For those of you who have not done this, it may be harder when they get older. They’ve developed bad habits already. And that’s just logically speaking, never mind the fact that it’s very disrespectful to the Church to treat it as something trivial by letting your kids eat and play during Mass.

 

[djrakowski]

We agree 100%. And with respect to special needs, our children are aware that they are expected to act as they should, regardless of their challenges. And they’re doing better than every other kid in that cry room. That’s what was surprising to me!

I just don’t want my kids, having been told that mass is a special place with special ways we must behave, to see that other children are getting away with stuff that would get them in trouble. We’re trying very hard to make this transition from evangelical Protestantism, and I didn’t expect Catholics to be the ones to make it difficult!

pira114:

Having children with special needs is a separate matter altogether.

 

[pira114]

For what it’s worth, here’s my advice. Get out of the crying room! I don’t believe in them. They tend to make parents think it’s O.K. for their kids to run around and do what they want because no one can hear them. Wrong! Your children will do just fine outside of the crying room. It sounds like they can sit through a Mass and pay a little attention at least. I think that qualifies them to be treated as real people! I know a lot of grown men that can’t seem to sit through an entire Mass and actually be able to tell you what the Homily was about! Your children will benefit so much more from being in the real Church environment. Don’t worry about anybody getting annoyed if they make a little noise. They should be paying more attention to Mass than your children.

You should also check out the thread in this forum about children in Church.

 

[djrakowski]

Thanks for your advice. Actually, we are expecting our children to behave, but because of their special needs, it isn’t always easy to make them comply. Our middle daughter, for example, has lots of anxiety, and the loudness of the main church and number of unfamiliar people would just be too unbearable for her. So for now, until we get used to this transition, we’ll have to be in the cry room, otherwise we’d never be able to attend church together.

Honestly, I don’t think the problem is cry rooms, but rather how people treat them. Who knows? Maybe a family like ours will set an example!

pira114:

For what it’s worth, here’s my advice. Get out of the crying room! I don’t believe in them. They tend to make parents think it’s O.K. for their kids to run around and do what they want because no one can hear them. Wrong! Your children will do just fine outside of the crying room. It sounds like they can sit through a Mass and pay a little attention at least. I think that qualifies them to be treated as real people! I know a lot of grown men that can’t seem to sit through an entire Mass and actually be able to tell you what the Homily was about! Your children will benefit so much more from being in the real Church environment. Don’t worry about anybody getting annoyed if they make a little noise. They should be paying more attention to Mass than your children.

You should also check out the thread in this forum about children in Church.

 

[netmilsmom]

djrakowski:

Thanks for your advice. Actually, we are expecting our children to behave, but because of their special needs, it isn’t always easy to make them comply. Our middle daughter, for example, has lots of anxiety, and the loudness of the main church and number of unfamiliar people would just be too unbearable for her. So for now, until we get used to this transition, we’ll have to be in the cry room, otherwise we’d never be able to attend church together.

Honestly, I don’t think the problem is cry rooms, but rather how people treat them. Who knows? Maybe a family like ours will set an example!

And of course, the ushers who might rough up the picnic parents!

 

[djrakowski]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And of course, the ushers who might rough up the picnic parents!

I’ll offer that suggestion to Fr. Ben

 

[puzzleannie]

djrakowski:

I have one question: is it this way everywhere folks use a cry room? We don’t treat it any differently than church - the same rules apply in the cry room as in the main church. Why do so many folks see the cry room as an excuse to break the rules of church?

Keep in mind this is at a very orthodox and well-regarded parish, and that there are signs on the entrance and exit doors of the cry room reminding folks not to eat in church. What gives?

what gives is that parents seem to consider their own children as special and above the rules, and transmit this attitude toward their children. They disregard a simple sign banning food the same way they disregard other Church teaching that inconveniences them.

Norms from the bishops for building and renovating churches actually ban cry rooms, saying children belong in the assembly.

At DDs former parish (OL Victory in State College) they seldom used the cryroom when they had the baby because it was so chaotic, and interfered with their attempt to teach the children to behave properly at Mass.

new pastor got rid of the toys, installed comfortable seating, put in racks for missals and hymnbooks, including children’s missals, banned all food and drink except bottles for infants, put in comfortable discreet seating for nursing mothers in the back (where toys were formally housed in what had become a zoo for preschoolers). He encouraged families to sit up front in the main body of the Church and to reserve the cryroom for families with infants and toddlers, so that parents would not have to carry them outside. They had one Mass geared specifically for families of small children, and while it was a complete adult Sunday liturgy, they had a children’s choir and he considered the children in his homilies. The atmosphere changed overnight and it once more became a pleasant place for families to worship and find support in training their children properly.

they also had a bell choir that was fantastic, and worth the trip to hear them if they are still there.

I will never forget the homily of a new priest, friend of SIL’s family, we heard in Cleveland. At the beginning of the sermon as several parents reluctantly stood up to carry wailing babies outside, he stopped them and said: “you stay right here, you can walk around, but your child is not disturbing anyone, he is praising God. I am the oldest of 16 children and I guarantee you I can make myself heard by everyone in the Church.”

 

[Veronica_Anne]

pira114:

For what it’s worth, here’s my advice. Get out of the crying room! I don’t believe in them. … Don’t worry about anybody getting annoyed if they make a little noise. They should be paying more attention to Mass than your children.

You know, although I’m not a parent… I’d like to share my feedback on your comment that I quoted above, ira114.

I would VERY MUCH like not to pay attention to people’s children… and instead I VERY MUCH want to celebrate Mass. As much as I understand that children are not adults and have their own behaviors for whatever age they are at that point in their lives, still I am BEYOND midly distracted when children aged 3 months to 5 years are cavorting all over the pew beside me, in front of me, behind me… making all kinds of noise, crawling around and under their pew seating…

while the adult sitting next to them is ignoring them.

I realize that being a parent is a huge job… yet…

I don’t have children in my house, so I am not “immunized” against the bedlam going on around me at Mass. I am NOT over-reacting. Sometimes it is sheer bedlam. And, of course, the priest does not interrupt Mass – no matter what.

Some Masses, I can hardly pay attention to what is happening at the altar.

I really DO wish that adults would take their children who are not being taught by those parents for how to behave at Mass to the side chapel with the windows where the adults and children can sit and celebrate Mass along with the people of all ages who don’t cavort around the pews as if they’re in the play yard.

Parents and any other adults that are with those children who are NOT teaching those children – of any age – how to behave at Mass are doing their children a huge dis-service.

My 2 cents duly deposited. Thanks for listening.

 

[fix]

puzzleannie:

new pastor got rid of the toys, installed comfortable seating, put in racks for missals and hymnbooks, including children’s missals, banned all food and drink except bottles for infants, put in comfortable discreet seating for nursing mothers in the back (where toys were formally housed in what had become a zoo for preschoolers). He encouraged families to sit up front in the main body of the Church and to reserve the cryroom for families with infants and toddlers, so that parents would not have to carry them outside.

This is great common sense. I wish more folks would see things this way.

 

[thistle]

Veronica Anne:

You know, although I’m not a parent… I’d like to share my feedback on your comment that I quoted above, ira114.

I would VERY MUCH like not to pay attention to people’s children… and instead I VERY MUCH want to celebrate Mass. As much as I understand that children are not adults and have their own behaviors for whatever age they are at that point in their lives, still I am BEYOND midly distracted when children aged 3 months to 5 years are cavorting all over the pew beside me, in front of me, behind me… making all kinds of noise, crawling around and under their pew seating…

while the adult sitting next to them is ignoring them.

I realize that being a parent is a huge job… yet…

I don’t have children in my house, so I am not “immunized” against the bedlam going on around me at Mass. I am NOT over-reacting. Sometimes it is sheer bedlam. And, of course, the priest does not interrupt Mass – no matter what.

Some Masses, I can hardly pay attention to what is happening at the altar.

I really DO wish that adults would take their children who are not being taught by those parents for how to behave at Mass to the side chapel with the windows where the adults and children can sit and celebrate Mass along with the people of all ages who don’t cavort around the pews as if they’re in the play yard.

Parents and any other adults that are with those children who are NOT teaching those children – of any age – how to behave at Mass are doing their children a huge dis-service.

My 2 cents duly deposited. Thanks for listening.

**Matthew 19:13-14

“Then the little children were brought to Jesus that he might lay his hands on them with a prayer. But the disciples scolded those who brought them. Jesus then said, Let them be! Do not stop them coming to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people such as these”.**

 

[netmilsmom]

**Matthew 19:13-14

“Then the little children were brought to Jesus that he might lay his hands on them with a prayer. But the disciples scolded those who brought them. Jesus then said, Let them be! Do not stop them coming to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people such as these”.**

Wonderful scriptural reference. Let the little children come, but teach them that things are appropriate in certain places. That is what Veronica Anne is talking about.

Just as I would not let my children run and scream in a restaurant, but will encourage it on a playground, children should be taught what is appropriate in church.

Those parents in the verse were asking Jesus to lay hands on them with a prayer. Some of the parents coming to mass are into themselves and the children are secondary. Our job as parents is to make fine adults not be friends to our children. In order to make them fine adults, it takes training ALL the time. I love seeing children in Mass, even the toddlers who react with awe and innocence. However, when the parent ignores disruptive behavior continually without regard to those around him/her, that is not teaching appropriate behavior to the child.

I have a five year old myself so I am far from Anti-Child. I am pro consideration.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Matthew 19:13-14

"Then the little children were brought to Jesus that he might lay his hands on them with a prayer. But the disciples scolded those who brought them. Jesus then said, Let them be! Do not stop them coming to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people such as these".

What Veronica said is not out of line. The children are not being stopped from coming to Him, they are being stopped from behaving like His house was an outside playground. Nothing to do with not coming to Him.

 

[puzzleannie]

Loboto-Me:

What Veronica said is not out of line. The children are not being stopped from coming to Him, they are being stopped from behaving like His house was an outside playground. Nothing to do with not coming to Him.

children who treat Church like a playground also act that way in McDonalds, in the movie theater, the mall, Walmart, the doctor’s office, the library and their living room. It begins at home, the child has to learn there are times and places to eat and drink, and times and places where food is not allowed. There are times and places to run, jump, yell and throw things, and times and places to sit quietly and read or listen. There are times and places to play with toys, and times and places to keep our hands and bodies still. If they are not trained to behave at home it is ludicrous to expect them to behave in a public place for 15 minutes, still less in Church for an hour. I still think it goes back to ABC, which contributes to smaller families, which contributes to the “My child is special” attitude, which contributes to the “rules don’t apply to my special child” attitude.

 

[AltarMan]

I sometimes attend the Divine Liturgy in an Eastern parish and I have to admit I am amazed at how most of the kids act there.

The Divine Liturgy usually last about 75 mins – longer than most Masses today. It’s not uncommon for a ten year old to hold their baby siblings at this parish. Many come up to receive Holy Communion quite independantly of their parents from age 6+.

I think so much has to do with expectations and the investment we make in the future…

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

I think so much has to do with expectations and the investment we make in the future…

You have children don’t you?
If not, you should.

You have found the contact point between the nail and the head my friend. Spot on!