And who do you say Christ is?

[mrs_abbott]

Yes, but if He was only faking it (that is, if He could take off His humanity like a costume after a costume party, instead of it becoming part of His eternal identity) then what was the use of the Cross and the Resurrection? Proof that God can rise from the dead? Cool party trick, but so what?

But if a human being rose from the dead and went to Heaven, then we have hope - Christian hope. Do you get the difference, now?

In other words, it’s really important that Jesus was still a human being at the time of the Resurrection and at the time of the Ascension into Heaven (which we celebrate tomorrow, by the way) - that He didn’t stop being human at the Cross.

But that’s just it. He wasn’t faking it. It’s one of those things like the Trinity that we’ll never fully understand until we die and find ourselves before God. He really was human when he was born here on earth and suffered just like we do, but yet he retained his divinity too.
I’m just looking at this from a different angle is all. You know, the “other” side.

 

[mrs_abbott]

The three persons are mentioned but you must go through scriptural acrobatics to piece together the Trinity (just try and defend it with your bible to a Oneness Pentecostal or some other cult) and you will see its not the pie in the sky bulletproof argument using your value of “the three persons are mentioned in the bible several times” This speaks nothing of the trinity at all.

Maybe if we were all more honest with ourselves we would admit the reason we accept it is the Church tells us so. Take a look at early church history and all the bloody battles fought over the very topic! I would look at the Arian heresy but its not limited to them by any means.

mainstream Protestants have benefitted from the Trinity being dealt with fully before they popped on the scene. Of course, they too will say its in the bible.
Because the persons are mentioned? If I were an atheist I would have a field day with that argument! No offense.

No offense taken. I’m not an apologist nor am I even close to earning such a status. When dealing with those who question things that I am not equipped to answer, I direct them to others who are or who at least know where to go find the answer.
I can’t explain the Trinity because I, myself, don’t understand it. I just have faith and believe it.

 

[Hellisreal]

But that’s just it. He wasn’t faking it. It’s one of those things like the Trinity that we’ll never fully understand until we die and find ourselves before God. He really was human when he was born here on earth and suffered just like we do, but yet he retained his divinity too.
I’m just looking at this from a different angle is all. You know, the “other” side.

Thats so wonderful for you. But you dont even know what the Catholic side is.

Why bother yourself. Just look at any other side.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hellisreal:
Thats so wonderful for you. But you dont even know what the Catholic side is.

Why bother yourself. Just look at any other side.

Catholic side = Jesus Christ is both God and man; after his death, he was raised up to Heaven (body and soul) and is seated at the right hand of God.
Am I right or even close?

 

[jmcrae]

Catholic side = Jesus Christ is both God and man; after his death, he was raised up to Heaven (body and soul) and is seated at the right hand of God.
Am I right or even close?

That’s also the mainstream Protestant side, along with the Evangelical side - this is one of those “essentials” that nondenominational Protestants are always talking about - one of the things that everyone with a Trinitarian baptism agrees on.

To say that Christ was for the time that He was on earth, but is no longer, a human being steps out of any known form of Christianity - I don’t even think there were any ancient heretics who took that particular stand, although I could be mistaken on that.

Certainly, there is no modern form of Christianity that holds this belief - unless you’ve found one? But I’m not aware of any.

 

[jmcrae]

But that’s just it. He wasn’t faking it.

If He *wasn’*t faking it, then He’s still human. We can’t have it both ways.

 

[Hellisreal]

How does one Sit at all let alone at the right hand side of the Father without a body?

How can sitting be done without a body?

Might be far out there logic to ask this but., I must know.

 

[Hellisreal]

And please, please do not tell me the Father has a body!

 

[Randy_Carson]

I voted for 1, 2, 4, 7.

How did I do?

 

[mrs_abbott]

If He *wasn’*t faking it, then He’s still human. We can’t have it both ways.

Is that really crucial to believe for our salvation, though?

 

[mrs_abbott]

How does one Sit at all let alone at the right hand side of the Father without a body?

How can sitting be done without a body?

Might be far out there logic to ask this but., I must know.

It’s one of those things that I’m gonna have to wait til I die to find out.

 

[lak611]

Is that really crucial to believe for our salvation, though?

Yes, because if Christ is not fully human, we would have no forgiveness of sin.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation: but grace is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift and of justice shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation: so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.
Rom 5:20 Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Douay-Rheims)

 

[mrs_abbott]

Yes, because if Christ is not fully human, we would have no forgiveness of sin.

But I believe he was. Is it necessary for salvation to believe that he is still human in Heaven right now?

 

[MariaG]

He is 100% man and 100% God, the second person of the Trinity. Because he is only one person, he has only one will. (He had conflicting emotions, but emotions are separate from the will. His will was united perfectly to that of the Father and the Holy Spirit.)

Thanks for writing this so succintly.

I voted that He had one will, but could not articulate why.

This is how I voted and thanks to jmcrae, it is also why

 

[MariaG]

The view that Christ had only one will is called monotheletism and was condemned as heresy at the Third Council of Constantinople in 678 AD.

Thanks for that.

I can see my confusion was with the definition of “will” and also see, how great minds of the Catholic Church, are of course, right

I originally was thinking (and voted) along the lines of jmcrae, even though I really could not articulate why. But we learn something new all the time. I love Catholic Answers forums

from the above article
The Catholic doctrine is simple, at all events in its main lines. The faculty of willing is an integral part of human nature: therefore, our Lord had a human will, since He took a perfect human nature. His Divine will on the other hand is numerically one with that of the Father and the Holy Ghost. It is therefore necessary to acknowledge two wills in Christ. But if the word will is taken to mean not the faculty but the decision taken by the will (the will willed, not the will willing), then it is true that the two wills always acted in harmony:

 

[lak611]

But I believe he was. Is it necessary for salvation to believe that he is still human in Heaven right now?

Yes. As the Apostle’s Creed says, “I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting”. This is also explained here:

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain: for you are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep:
1Co 15:21 For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ: then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming.(Douay-Rheims)

 

[mrs_abbott]

Yes. As the Apostle’s Creed says, “I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting”. This is also explained here:

I’m agreeing to disagree because I don’t think we’re on the same page on this one and I feel like I’m going in circles :hypno: trying to explain myself.
It’s not your fault. I just have a hard time getting my point across sometimes.

 

[Hellisreal]

Mrs. Abbott, what is the dillemma in this?

As Jmcrae said, no Christian holds this view of yours. It is not a good thing to brush it off and say, “I’ll know when I get to heaven”

Are you looking to get by with the minimum and only worry about “is it dependent on my salvation”?

Heaven is not TJMAXX you dont get the max for the minimum in the Christian life you know. You must attempt to try and show some interest in this Jesus you claim to love.

Not showing any concern over this matter until “you get to heaven” shows God how you dont find it worth the effort to even try.

You have only said its not logical. What is not logical about it?
Yet, you admit the trinity is beyond human understanding yet you dont reject that.

 

[jmcrae]

But I believe he was. Is it necessary for salvation to believe that he is still human in Heaven right now?

Yes, since if you don’t know who Christ is, then how can you believe in Him?

Belief in Christ is the most essential thing - we can’t go to Heaven if we don’t believe in Christ, and we can’t believe in Christ if we don’t know who He is, or what He did for us.

This is why it is absolutely essential to believe what is true, and stay away from heresy.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Sorry, this got blown WAY out of context. I didn’t mean it the way it was interpretted.