"And with thy spirit"

[Digitonomy]

I think we would do well to consider “ghost”.

I believe it once was “ghost.” I’m not sure when the change was made to “spirit,” but if you look at older sources e.g. the old Catholic Encyclopedia, you’ll see “ghost” seems to be the preferred form.

 

[Zekariya]

I believe it once was “ghost.” I’m not sure when the change was made to “spirit,” but if you look at older sources e.g. the old Catholic Encyclopedia, you’ll see “ghost” seems to be the preferred form.

I know that “Holy Ghost” was used in pre-Vatican II English prayers. I have never seen “and with thy ghost” used in Catholic materials.

 

[Phemie]

I’m no Latin scholar but as far as I can see the Latin ‘spiritu’ doesn’t have the ‘ghost’ connotation; if they had wanted that sense they would use "phasmatis or phasma phasmatis".

It’s the same in French, where ‘esprit’ is, in some instances, used in much the same way as ‘spirit’ in English (esprit de corps, esprit de Vatican II, avoir de l’esprit which means to be witty) but doesn’t usually mean ‘fantôme’ (ghost). The third person of the Trinity has always been “Saint Esprit”.

 

[Zekariya]

I’m no Latin scholar but as far as I can see the Latin ‘spiritu’ doesn’t have the ‘ghost’ connotation; if they had wanted that sense they would use "phasmatis or phasma phasmatis".

It’s the same in French, where ‘esprit’ is, in some instances, used in much the same way as ‘spirit’ in English (esprit de corps, esprit de Vatican II, avoir de l’esprit which means to be witty) but doesn’t usually mean ‘fantôme’ (ghost). The third person of the Trinity has always been “Saint Esprit”.

The question about ghost is that since English is a Germanic language, why don’t we use the word ghost (anogulous to the German geist) which was originally synonymous with spiritus. In the KJV, Christ breathed his last and “gave up the ghost”.

Of course, today ghost doesn’t mean the same thing as spirit in the ears of most people. Also, the language of the Mass is Latin which is another why it is translated spirit.

 

[superamazingman]

The Mass is a latin language, hence the use of spirit. Besides many people (and children) would be concerned with saying ghost.

ghost has a different connotation in english now…it’s not really the right word for it in english any more.

 

[Zekariya]

ghost has a different connotation in english now…it’s not really the right word for it in english any more.

Ghost in English generally refers to an evil/scary spirit of sorts. Christians generally interpret ghost sightings as demonic apparitions.

 

[superamazingman]

Ghost in English generally refers to an evil/scary spirit of sorts. Christians generally interpret ghost sightings as demonic apparitions.

exactly.

 

[JimG]

In the original Latin Mass the saying is: “Dominus Vobiscum” (The Lord be with you) and the response is " Et cum spiritu tuo (And with thy spirit)
The English in parenthesis is an exact translation of the original Latin. This has been in the Mass for over 2,000 years; so, who are we or anyone else to change it?

Yes. In fact I was a little astonished when the phrase “Et cum spiritu tuo” was translated as “and also with you.” It made no sense, since the Latin version remained unchanged.

 

[Digitonomy]

"Brendan:

In the church of Antioch and Syria

Is this response present in all masses, or only in some rites?

The English in parenthesis is an exact translation of the original Latin. This has been in the Mass for over 2,000 years; so, who are we or anyone else to change it?

I’m pretty sure it’s less than 2000 years.

 

[Zekariya]

Is this response present in all masses, or only in some rites?I’m pretty sure it’s less than 2000 years.

“And with your spirit.”

It is present in the Byzantine Liturgy and Coptic Liturgy. I’m fairly certain that it is present in all Oriental Orthodox based Rites.