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GTNJNightingale
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Where is Angel Moroni in history out side of Joseph smiths visits? where is he in the Angelic Realm…?
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rmcmullan
Guest
This is where Catholics and Mormons have (yet another) big difference. LDS believe that angels are resurrected beings from this planet, especially in Moroni’s case. He was one of the original prophet/historians to contribute to the Book of Mormon, being Mormon’s son. From the Doctrine and Covenants:
DC 130:5 But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.
DC 130:5 But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.
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Marie5890
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GTNJNightingale, you are doing something that most non-Mormons do.
You are trying to see Mormonism thru your Catholic prism. It doesn’t work.
They are very different.
Asking Mormons to defend Mormonism based on Catholic teaching will only leave people in a spirit of contenious argument.
Rather than debate Mormons and try to prove them wrong, why dont you, in a spirit of Christian charity (it IS Lent), try to find out what you have in common and build on that.
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stephe1987
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Wait a minute…
If angels are resurrected beings from this planet, then how did Satan (an angel, a fallen one, but still an angel) tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? Nobody had died at that point. They were the first humans. The human genome project (modern science/our DNA) has proven that everyone alive today is descended from common ancestors. Unless you are suggesting angels are resurrected animals, which cannot be true because animals cannot talk?
Or is that part of “the Bible is corrupt/cannot be trusted completely; only trust the Book of Mormon”?
If angels are resurrected beings from this planet, then how did Satan (an angel, a fallen one, but still an angel) tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? Nobody had died at that point. They were the first humans. The human genome project (modern science/our DNA) has proven that everyone alive today is descended from common ancestors. Unless you are suggesting angels are resurrected animals, which cannot be true because animals cannot talk?
Or is that part of “the Bible is corrupt/cannot be trusted completely; only trust the Book of Mormon”?
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JeanMichel
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The statement above was just incomplete. Mormons believe that angels are beings that either have not yet come to this earth to take a mortal body, beings that have died, or beings that have died and gained a glorified body.
No, it is not part of the Bible that is corrupt/cannot be trusted completely. Nor does it have anything to do with the Book of Mormon.
It falls more into their “Tradition” or teachings of their prophets.
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rmcmullan
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On the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus communes with Moses and Elias. As I understand it, Catholics would not call them angels. What is the Catholic opinion on this rather singular event?
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FightingFat
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In the event of the Transfiguration we contemplate the mysterious encounter between history, which is being built every day, and the blessed inheritance that awaits us in heaven in full union with Christ, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
We, pilgrims on earth, are granted to rejoice in the company of the transfigured Lord when we immerse ourselves in the things of above through prayer and the celebration of the divine mysteries. But, like the disciples, we too must descend from Tabor into daily life where human events challenge our faith. On the mountain we saw; on the paths of life we are asked tirelessly to proclaim the Gospel which illuminates the steps of believers.
The Transfiguration of the Lord throws a dazzling light on our daily life, and makes us turn our mind to the immortal destiny which that fact foreshadows. We are made for eternity and eternity begins at this very moment, since the Lord is among us and lives with and in his Church.
A foretaste of the Kingdom: the Transfiguration
554 From the day Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the Master "began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things. . . and be killed, and on the third day be raised."290 Peter scorns this prediction, nor do the others understand it any better than he.291 In this context the mysterious episode of Jesus’ Transfiguration takes place on a high mountain,292 before three witnesses chosen by himself: Peter, James and John. Jesus’ face and clothes become dazzling with light, and Moses and Elijah appear, speaking “of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem”.293 A cloud covers him and a voice from heaven says: "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"294
555 For a moment Jesus discloses his divine glory, confirming Peter’s confession. He also reveals that he will have to go by the way of the cross at Jerusalem in order to “enter into his glory”.295 Moses and Elijah had seen God’s glory on the Mountain; the Law and the Prophets had announced the Messiah’s sufferings.296 Christ’s Passion is the will of the Father: the Son acts as God’s servant;297 the cloud indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit. "The whole Trinity appeared: the Father in the voice; the Son in the man; the Spirit in the shining cloud."298
You were transfigured on the mountain, and your disciples, as much as they were capable of it, beheld your glory, O Christ our God, so that when they should see you crucified they would understand that your Passion was voluntary, and proclaim to the world that you truly are the splendor of the Father.299
556 On the threshold of the public life: the baptism; on the threshold of the Passover: the Transfiguration. Jesus’ baptism proclaimed “the mystery of the first regeneration”, namely, our Baptism; the Transfiguration “is the sacrament of the second regeneration”: our own Resurrection.300 From now on we share in the Lord’s Resurrection through the Spirit who acts in the sacraments of the Body of Christ. The Transfiguration gives us a foretaste of Christ’s glorious coming, when he "will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body."301 But it also recalls that “it is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God”:302
Peter did not yet understand this when he wanted to remain with Christ on the mountain. It has been reserved for you, Peter, but for after death. For now, Jesus says: "Go down to toil on earth, to serve on earth, to be scorned and crucified on earth. Life goes down to be killed; Bread goes down to suffer hunger; the Way goes down to be exhausted on his journey; the Spring goes down to suffer thirst; and you refuse to suffer?"303
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GTNJNightingale
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Right I see. but the Angelic realm is not only recognized in Catholicism. I acknowledge that they are VERY different Religions . I also was not asking Mormons to Defend there faith . I AM on a Catholic site. My question strictly has to do with Moroni in history outside of the Mormon faith. thank you for your reply tho.GTNJNightingale, you are doing something that most non-Mormons do.
You are trying to see Mormonism thru your Catholic prism. It doesn’t work.
They are very different.
Asking Mormons to defend Mormonism based on Catholic teaching will only leave people in a spirit of contenious argument.
Rather than debate Mormons and try to prove them wrong, why dont you, in a spirit of Christian charity (it IS Lent), try to find out what you have in common and build on that.
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SteveVH
Guest
The way Catholics understand it is that Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with Jesus. They were not angels, they were Moses and Elijah. Angels are different creatures altogether; pure spirit, not made of flesh. Human beings do not become angels and angels do not become human beings.
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SteveVH
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Other than the existence of God (athough we do not even agree on His nature) I’m trying to think of what we might have in common that could be built upon. Certainly there is nothing we share doctrinally. I appreciate the spirit of Christian unity, however the Catholic Church does not even recognize the LDS faith as a Christian faith, but something else entirely. So where do you suggest we begin this unity of faith? I have been trying to find it now for nearly two years on this forum. I do agree with you, however, that trying to understand the Mormon faith from a Catholic perspective is a fruitless exercise. We don’t even speak the same language.GTNJNightingale, you are doing something that most non-Mormons do.
You are trying to see Mormonism thru your Catholic prism. It doesn’t work.
They are very different.
Asking Mormons to defend Mormonism based on Catholic teaching will only leave people in a spirit of contenious argument.
Rather than debate Mormons and try to prove them wrong, why dont you, in a spirit of Christian charity (it IS Lent), try to find out what you have in common and build on that.
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Marie5890
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Both believe in Jesus was Son of God (though the understanding the nature of differently)
Both believe He is the Savior, born of a Virgin, (though they don’t believe in perpetually virginity), That He suffered, was condemned, died, was buried, rose again on the 3rd day, that He atoned for our sins,
Both have strong commitments to the family, are pro-life, etc etc
I would have to see actual official documentation that says the Catholic church doesn’t recognize the LDS church as not being Christian, although their baptism is not seen as valid. Is that what you are using to suggest this?
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Marie5890
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(This is the closest thing I can come to; again it has to do with baptism, but not a judgement of how Mormons relationship with Christ)
Vatican says Mormon baptisms are invalid
Vatican says Mormon baptisms are invalid
National Catholic Reporter
August 10, 2001
by Gill Donovan
The baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be considered a valid Christian baptism, said the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation.
The ruling by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was published in the July 16-17 edition of the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, after being approved by Pope John Paul II.
While the Mormon baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Mormon beliefs about the identity of the three persons is so different from Catholic and mainline Christian belief that “one cannot even consider this doctrine to be a heresy arising from a false understanding of Christian doctrine,” said a Vatican explanation of the ruling.
The notice, dated June 5, was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the congregation, and by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary.
An accompanying article in L’Osservatore Romano said the ruling “changes the past practice of not contesting the validity of this baptism.”
The church’s refusal to recognize Mormon baptisms won’t affect how the two groups work together, leaders in both churches said from Salt Lake City.
“We have a good relationship with the Catholic church and that won’t change,” said Dale Bills, spokesman at the national office of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City.
Msgr J. Terrence Fitzgerald, vicar for the Salt Lake City, Utah, diocese, said the Vatican ruling doesn’t imply “that the Catholic church has a judgment on an individual Mormon’s relationship with Jesus.” He said the “good working relationship” between Catholics and Mormons in Salt Lake will continue.
Vatican says Mormon baptisms are invalid
Vatican says Mormon baptisms are invalid
National Catholic Reporter
August 10, 2001
by Gill Donovan
The baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be considered a valid Christian baptism, said the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation.
The ruling by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was published in the July 16-17 edition of the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, after being approved by Pope John Paul II.
While the Mormon baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Mormon beliefs about the identity of the three persons is so different from Catholic and mainline Christian belief that “one cannot even consider this doctrine to be a heresy arising from a false understanding of Christian doctrine,” said a Vatican explanation of the ruling.
The notice, dated June 5, was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the congregation, and by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, secretary.
An accompanying article in L’Osservatore Romano said the ruling “changes the past practice of not contesting the validity of this baptism.”
The church’s refusal to recognize Mormon baptisms won’t affect how the two groups work together, leaders in both churches said from Salt Lake City.
“We have a good relationship with the Catholic church and that won’t change,” said Dale Bills, spokesman at the national office of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City.
Msgr J. Terrence Fitzgerald, vicar for the Salt Lake City, Utah, diocese, said the Vatican ruling doesn’t imply “that the Catholic church has a judgment on an individual Mormon’s relationship with Jesus.” He said the “good working relationship” between Catholics and Mormons in Salt Lake will continue.
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Marie5890
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Moroni is only found in Mormonism. He is a character found in the Book of Mormon. He is consider the last of the Nephities (one would have to read the BoM to understand all of this) He is considered a resurrected mortal who came back as a messanger (angel) and appeared to Joseph Smith and was the one who deliver the plates that the BoM was supposed inscribed on…My question strictly has to do with Moroni in history outside of the Mormon faith. thank you for your reply tho.
But you are right. One will not find him in any tradition outside of Mormonism.
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catsrus
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To the original poster’s question:
There is no moroni in history.
There is no moroni in history.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
Moroni is a Star Wars character, the name of the little monkey guy that helps Jabba the Hutt. What does this have to do with Mormonism? Are you making fun of it?
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FightingFat
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SteveVH
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I think if you read the actual statement, rather than the report from the newspaper you will find that the reason the baptism isn’t valid is because Mormonism isn’t considered “Christian”. I’m in a bit of a hurry right now but will try and find it a little later.
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DaveBj
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I am more interested in the name Moroni. All of the angels (and most of the people) mentioned in the Bible have names that mean something: Michael (mi-kha-'el) = who is like God; Rafa’el = God has healed; Gabri’el = warrior of God.
What does the name Moroni mean, and in what language?
DaveBj
What does the name Moroni mean, and in what language?
DaveBj
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GTNJNightingale
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another Good question! also it isn’t anywhere in the Bible( you know, the one holy true book…hey I didn’t say it, Jesus did!)
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Robert_in_SD
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We would not call them angels or angellic beings because they are human beings. That is why the text does not refer to them as angels sent by the Father, but instead refers to them by their human names. Catholics see the angels as a different type of being altogether from man - being creatures of pure spirit and intellect. Human beings are fundamentally different, being creatures of both flesh and spirit.
Peace,
Robert
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