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uglygal
Guest
Is the Angel of the Lord of the Old Testament the preincarnate Christ?
If not, who is it? and why are they called God?
Thanks
If not, who is it? and why are they called God?
Thanks
- Status
L
Little_One0307
Guest
I am a huge devotee of St. Michael. Some traditions, and I don’t speak for the Church here, hold that the Angel of the Lord is St. Micheal. He executes God’s Will so to speak. He was the patron of Israel and is a patron of the Church. I shall look up some references for you, when I have time later today.
God bless.
God bless.
H
Heuchler
Guest
I thought that was a term just applied to any angel. Like even though we know it was the angel Gabriel who was at the annunciation the angelus says, “and the angel of the lord appeared unto Mary…” So I have always taken this to mean any angel acting for God ( in other words, not demons) was called an angel of the lord. I don’t think there was ever a reference to the preincarnate Christ outside of God saying We should make them in our own image in Genesis.
J
jcrichton
Guest
I had studied this issue some years back… my conclusion is that the Angel of the Lord is not a mere angel or Archangel… but I do not believe that it is the pre-Incarnate Christ. I believe that the Angel of the Lord is the Holy Spirit.
If you like, I can revisit my notes and provide you with the passages from which I’ve come to my conclusion.
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jsaldar
Guest
I also think it is a refrence to the Holy Spirit
L
Little_One0307
Guest
J
jcrichton
Guest
I’ll get cracking on it tomorrow!
…in the mean while consider that in the New Testament we find several instances when that which was attributed to Yahweh God (the Father) is reintroduced as originating from the Holy Spirit (ie.: the only sin not forgiven is that of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).
Maran atha!
Angel
U
uglygal
Guest
U
uglygal
Guest
The Angel of the Lord is viewed as, and claims to be God. A theophany of God.
In my understanding this couldn’t be St Michael because St Michael wouldn’t claim to be God.
U
uglygal
Guest
from what I understand, there are “just” angels who appear to people (i.e. Gabriel) but throught the OT there is one in particular and unique Angel of the Lord that speaks as God in the first person, is called God and is recognized as God.
I think this is the Angel of the Lord that appeared to Moses and was recognized as God by Moses and was the Angel that went before the Jews into the promised land.
I think the Angel of the Lord is either Christ before the incarnation - as in Christian belief Christ is the only theophany of God - or its some other God
I don’t think its the Father or the Holy Spirit because no one has ever seen them because the Face of the Godhead is Christ only
U
uglygal
Guest
L
Little_One0307
Guest
Where in Scripture does the Angel of the Lord claim to be God? or in Church Tradition for that matter? I have not ran across any sources if you have them, please by all means post.
Thanks.
God bless.
B
byeveryword
Guest
Yes, in some instances. It was commonly acknowleged by many early church fathers that one of the ‘angels’ that appeared to Abraham and later that was with Lot was considered the pre-incarnate Christ…the one referred to as “The LORD rained down fire and brimstone from the LORD out of heaven.” The angel that wrestled with Jacob was considered the pre-incarnate Christ. The angel that appeared to Moses in the burning bush was considered the pre-incarnate Christ. The angel that appeared to Joshua before the battle of Jericho was considered the pre-incarnate Christ. Some of the revelations to the prophets where an ‘angel’ appeared to them were considered to be the pre-incarnate Christ. The word, angel, in both Hebrew and Greek can also be translated ‘messenger’.
On a few occasions in scripture, the word for ‘angel’ is interchanged with the word, ‘elohim’ which is the Hebrew word for God, or god(s).
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, I have not found the original notes… but I’ve pieced together another one:
7 The angel of Yahweh found her by a spring in the desert, the spring on the road to Shur. 8 He said, ‘Hagar, slave-girl of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?’ ‘I am running away from my mistress Sarai,’ she replied. 9 The angel of Yahweh said to her, ‘Go back to your mistress and submit to her.’ 10 The angel of Yahweh further said to her, ‘I shall make your descendants too numerous to be counted.’ 11 Then the angel of Yahweh said to her: Now, you have conceived and will bear a son, and you shall name him Ishmael, for Yahweh has heard your cries of distress. 12 A wild donkey of a man he will be, his hand against every man, and every man’s hand against him, living his life in defiance of all his kinsmen. 13 Hagar gave a name to Yahweh who had spoken to her, ‘You are El Roi,’ by which she meant, ‘Did I not go on seeing here, after him who sees me?’ 14 This is why the well is called the well of Lahai Roi; it is between Kadesh and Bered. (Genesis 16:7-14)
On this particular passage verses 7, 8 and 13 demonstrate that the Angel of the Yahweh is Yahweh Himself–Genesis 22:11-19, Exodus 14:19-24 and Judges 2:1-5 develop very semilarly.
11 In the dream the angel of God called to me, “Jacob!” I said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Now take note: all the he-goats covering the females are striped or spotted or piebald – for I too have noted all the things that Laban has been doing to you, 13 I am the God who appeared to you at Bethel, where you poured oil on a pillar and made a vow to me. On your feet, then, leave this country and return to the land of your birth.” ’ (Genesis 33:11-13)
Here Jacob has a visit by the Angel of God who reveals that He is God, the same one Jacob worshiped at Bethel.
21 And now I understand everything, hidden or visible, for Wisdom, the designer of all things, has instructed me, 27 Although she is alone, she can do everything; herself unchanging, she renews the world, and, generation after generation, passing into holy souls, she makes them into God’s friends and prophets;
(Wisdom 7 21, 27)
10 This salvation was the subject of the search and investigation of the prophets who spoke of the grace you were to receive, 11 searching out the time and circumstances for which the Spirit of Christ, bearing witness in them, was revealing the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow them. 12 It was revealed to them that it was for your sake and not their own that they were acting as servants delivering the message which has now been announced to you by those who preached to you the gospel through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even the angels long to catch a glimpse of these things. (1 St. Peter 1:10-12)
19 So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets; and you will be right to pay attention to it as to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark, until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds. 20 At the same time, we must recognise that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual. 21 For no prophecy ever came from human initiative. When people spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them. (2 St. Peter 1:19-21)
Wisdom 7:21, 27 as well as 1 St. Peter 1:10-12 and 2 St. Peter 1:19-21 place the Holy Spirit is the Person of God Who interacted with God’s Remnant and Prophets, revealing the Coming of the Messiah–God’s Salvific Plan!
7 That is why, as the Holy Spirit says: If only you would listen to him today! 8 Do not harden your hearts, as at the rebellion, as at the time of testing in the desert, 9 when your ancestors challenged me, and put me to the test, and saw what I could do 10 for forty years. That was why that generation sickened me and I said, ‘Always fickle hearts, that cannot grasp my ways!’ 11 And then in my anger I swore that they would never enter my place of rest. (Hebrews 3:7-11)
15 The Holy Spirit attests this to us, for after saying: 16 No, this is the covenant I will make with them, when those days have come. the Lord says: In their minds I will plant my Laws writing them on their hearts, 17 and I shall never more call their sins to mind, or their offences. (Hebrews 10:15-17)
And Hebrews 3:7-11 and 10:15-17 reveals to us that the Holy Spirit, though hidden, was very active during the Old Covenant (Testament)–the only problem is that at the time of the incidents Scriptures attribute to the Father (Yahweh) the exact incidents described on these two passages to the Hebrews.
Though the Triune God works and exists collectively (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), each Person of God has a distinct function and a distinct time within the Salvific Plan in which to Reveal Himself!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…no not some other God!from what I understand, there are “just” angels who appear to people (i.e. Gabriel) but throught the OT there is one in particular and unique Angel of the Lord that speaks as God in the first person, is called God and is recognized as God.
I think this is the Angel of the Lord that appeared to Moses and was recognized as God by Moses and was the Angel that went before the Jews into the promised land.
I think the Angel of the Lord is either Christ before the incarnation - as in Christian belief Christ is the only theophany of God - or its some other God
I don’t think its the Father or the Holy Spirit because no one has ever seen them because the Face of the Godhead is Christ only
Christ is the only Person of God that has Come to us in the Incarnate form (fully Divine and fully human); yet, God has taken the form of a human-like creature at least twice as He interacted with Abraham and Sarai and with Jacob.
Maran atha!
Angel
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