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Stanislaw
Guest
Hi i have a question. Is Angel of the Lord Jesus himself according to Catholic Church?
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F
Fauken
Guest
No, Jesus is not an angel, He’s God.
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BartholomewB
Guest
No, I’ve never heard that, neither in the Catholic Church nor anywhere else.
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1ke
Guest
No. There is no teaching of the Church that states this as doctrine.
Early Church Fathers and theologians are split in their interpretations of Scripture on whether the “angel of the Lord” is a manifestation of the divine presence (God) or an angel (messenger).
But the Church does not interpret these passages in a definitive manner.
See this article:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
I think Yes, if you translate Angel as Messenger.
The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament speaks as God and is distinct from God.
Pretty Trinitarian if you ask me.
The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament speaks as God and is distinct from God.
Pretty Trinitarian if you ask me.
J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
For instance, the passage about the Burning Bush.
And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and lo, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here am I.” Then he said, “Do not come near; put off your shoes from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 3:2, 4-6 RSV
Notice how Moses when writing switches from Angel of the LORD to the LORD.
And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and lo, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here am I.” Then he said, “Do not come near; put off your shoes from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 3:2, 4-6 RSV
Notice how Moses when writing switches from Angel of the LORD to the LORD.
R
ReaderT
Guest
The Orthodox say yes but only in certain passages - one of them is the passage Julius_Caesar quoted directly above me. Another is Jacob wrestling with God in Genesis 32:
"And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [Hebrew for “facing God”], saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
Angel (ἄγγελος) is just the Greek word for 'Messenger". Jesus is God’s “Word” (λόγος), so in a sense He is God’s “message” and He talks about God.
"And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [Hebrew for “facing God”], saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
Angel (ἄγγελος) is just the Greek word for 'Messenger". Jesus is God’s “Word” (λόγος), so in a sense He is God’s “message” and He talks about God.
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ThomasMT
Guest
I think that that’s a Mormon belief, St. Michael incarnate… I could be wrong.
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Gorgias
Guest
No. Angels are not God.
(Yes, they were accorded the same respect as God, because they came from God and carried the message of God. But no, they weren’t God himself.)
It’s because the message of the angel is the message he was sent by God to convey. You’re overthinking this…
I thought of that, too. There’s another group out there, though, who claim that angel appearances are really Jesus, right?
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
The Messiah is called the Angel of Good Counsel.
Or the Angel is none other than the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
Augustine saw this.
But when Moses was sent to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, it is written that the Lord appeared to him thus: Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the back side of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is here also first called the Angel of the Lord, and then God. Was an angel, then, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Therefore He may be rightly understood to be the Saviour Himself, of whom the apostle says, Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. He, therefore, who is over all, God blessed for ever, is not unreasonably here understood also to be Himself the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
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Fauken
Guest
I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses do.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Augustine said that the Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush is correctly understood as Jesus.Gorgias:
I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses do.
Was he an Arian?
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ReaderT
Guest
Here is a study article from the Orthodox Study Bible (2008, page 1424):
“Theophanies of Christ”
An often cited theophany [appearance] of Christ occurs in the visit of the “three men” to Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18:1-16: “Then God appeared to him at the oak of Mamre” (v. 1). Though three men are there, Abraham addresses them in the singular, “Lord.” He responds in the singular (vv. 9-15). As St. Ephraim the Syrian says, “Therefore the Lord … now appeared to Abraham clearly in one of the three.” The three are generally considered to be Christ the Lord along with two attending angels.
At Genesis 32:25-31, Christ is the “man” who wrestles with Jacob, after which Jacob says “I saw God face to face.” St. Cyril of Jerusalem asks the Jews concerning these theophanies to Abraham and Jacob, “What strange thing do we announce in saying that God was made Man, when you yourselves say that Abraham received the Lord as a guest? What strange thing do we announce, when Jacob says, ‘For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved?’ The Lord, who ate with Abraham, also ate with us.”
In the book of Daniel, a heathen king bears witness to another theophany of Christ. When King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon peers into the fiery furnace, upon seeing a “fourth man” he exclaims, “The vision of the fourth is like the Son of God” (Daniel 3:92).
At times Christ appears as the “Angel of the Lord” or “the Angel of God.” At Exodus 3:1 - 4:17, the “Angel of the Lord” appears to Moses in the burning bush and identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Ex 3:6, 15, 16; 4:5) He also says that His name is “I AM HE WHO IS” (Ex. 3:14), which in Greek is represented by the three letters placed around Christ’s head in the holy icons.
“Theophanies of Christ”
An often cited theophany [appearance] of Christ occurs in the visit of the “three men” to Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18:1-16: “Then God appeared to him at the oak of Mamre” (v. 1). Though three men are there, Abraham addresses them in the singular, “Lord.” He responds in the singular (vv. 9-15). As St. Ephraim the Syrian says, “Therefore the Lord … now appeared to Abraham clearly in one of the three.” The three are generally considered to be Christ the Lord along with two attending angels.
At Genesis 32:25-31, Christ is the “man” who wrestles with Jacob, after which Jacob says “I saw God face to face.” St. Cyril of Jerusalem asks the Jews concerning these theophanies to Abraham and Jacob, “What strange thing do we announce in saying that God was made Man, when you yourselves say that Abraham received the Lord as a guest? What strange thing do we announce, when Jacob says, ‘For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved?’ The Lord, who ate with Abraham, also ate with us.”
In the book of Daniel, a heathen king bears witness to another theophany of Christ. When King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon peers into the fiery furnace, upon seeing a “fourth man” he exclaims, “The vision of the fourth is like the Son of God” (Daniel 3:92).
At times Christ appears as the “Angel of the Lord” or “the Angel of God.” At Exodus 3:1 - 4:17, the “Angel of the Lord” appears to Moses in the burning bush and identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Ex 3:6, 15, 16; 4:5) He also says that His name is “I AM HE WHO IS” (Ex. 3:14), which in Greek is represented by the three letters placed around Christ’s head in the holy icons.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Isn’t there also a school of thought that this was the Trinity? Hence the icon by Andrei Rublev?
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ReaderT
Guest
Many say it is a representation or “type” of the Trinity, but later the two angels go to Sodom to blind the people and rescue Lot
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Gorgias
Guest
Sigh.. Isaiah 9:6? μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος …? “Messenger of great council”?
I’m going to go with “you’re taking a general noun and interpreting it as a proper noun”. In the English translations, it’s “Wonder-Counselor”. And besides, it’s not a name, it’s a title.
OK. So we’ve got an ECS who sees this.
But, let me offer a word of advice: if you’re gonna proof-text, please realize that we all know how to Google, and can check out what you’re choosing to not quote:
Was he declaring a doctrine, or merely an interpretation?
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twf
Guest
Why does this bother people? There’s two possible interpretations and Catholics are free to hold either.
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Which is exactly what Angel means.
He’s affirmming the Trinity. He’s not saying the Son isn’t the Angel of the Lord.
And it’s not just Augustine.
Justin says this as well.
Now assuredly, Trypho, I shall show that, in the vision of Moses, this same One alone who is called an Angel, and who is God, appeared to and communed with Moses. For the Scripture says thus: ‘The Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the bush; and he sees that the bush burns with fire, but the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside and see this great sight, for the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he is turning aside to behold, the Lord called to him out of the bush.’ Exodus 3:2-4 In the same manner, therefore, in which the Scripture calls Him who appeared to Jacob in the dream an Angel, then [says] that the same Angel who appeared in the dream spoke to him, Genesis 35:7 saying, ‘I am the God that appeared to you when you fled from the face of Esau your brother;’
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Julius_Caesar
Guest
Which is something, you did.
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