Angelina Jolie-Self Mutilation or Preventatives?- Not Sure Where To Place This Thread

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Hello Everyone

I know most of us have heard about Ms. Pitt’s double mastectomy a while back and today we are again hearing about her surgery to remove both ovaries (one healthy and one suspicious for cancer). Not sure if she still has her uterus and cervix but I suspect that at some point she will remove them as well.

She lost her grand-mother, mother and aunts to breast and ovarian cancer and as a mother with children is terrified of dying of the disease as well. However, I have to ask one question based on her admitted history of sexualization and self harm: Is she using cancer fears as an (unconscious) permission/rationalization to mutilate her body?

Looking at her admitted past which includes tragic sexualization and self harm could it be another form of the old self abuse now manifesting via surgery where surgeons are the ones doing harm and harm that she is directing out of paranoia, anguish, grief and a desire to strip herself of her outward signs of female sexuality as a response to having been abused as a child?

I ask these questions not to demean her or any women who may fear cancer, have been abused or struggle with the cross of self harm but because I (like Ms. Pitt) have an extensive history of reproductive cancer in my family and have had my own cancer scares and biopsies to detect malignancies in my breast and to investigate possible abnormalities in the cells of my cervix. Praise God no cancers were discovered and any abnormalities are being monitored but no surgeries have been considered. I am also an incest victim and have self harmed as a young person and have had emotional struggles, suicidal intentions and sexual victimization as an adult.

My childhood sexualization and addiction to self harm along with the sex abuse scandals in the church caused me to abandon my faith for a quarter century out of confusion and misplaced anger. I have been at the very bottom of low self esteem, self loathing, anger, fear, pain and insecurity in myself as a woman, wife and mother. At the height of my pain and fear any doctor could have convinced me that the only way to get control of the threat of cancer would be to take out my organs (healthy or sick) and in my fragile state I might have found this cathartic: a way of exercising control over my body when I felt I had no control over the things done to my body by others who controlled and in a sense were still controlled my life by way of the terror I still felt when recalling-in PTSD induced flashbacks, triggers, etc,- the things done to me. This is the point I’m making, as a Catholic but also as a woman. When is it sensible to turn to preemptive measures and when does that desire become less about stopping a disease process and more about considering YOURSELF (along with breasts and other reproductive organs that are part of our sexual identity as well as gender) the disease that must be destroyed and cut out?

I myself have had moments of absolute self hatred and fear where the thought of “getting rid” of female organs would have been a relief to me. Now that I’m back in the church I understand how beautiful our bodies and sexuality are and that God gifted men and women with these so that in marriage we can use these gifts as a sacred extension of what we feel for one another. From this expression we are also gifted with children who are made of love and are deserving of love as well as knowledge of the loving, saving power of Jesus and his church. Having been an incest survivor I learned the hard way the value of children, the sacredness of human life and how necessary it is to defend and protect life as well as our own dignity as men and women.

I know Ms. Pitt is not a Catholic-she is a liberal who supports some of the things the church is strongly against. I also know ,however, that she has the admiration and sympathy of many women Catholics and non-Catholics alike and this concerns me greatly. Coming out with the Op-Ed pieces that she has after every surgery, Ms. Pitt is essentially saying to the world: ‘If you are a wife, mother and have responsibilities to others, you are a bad and selfish person if you don’t cut out not only sick but healthy organs if there is even a chance they might be or could become cancerous someday!’

What scares the heck out of me is that Catholic women who are unsure or in denial of church teaching may be swayed by this ‘siren-song’ of “prophylactic surgery is good” propaganda and think that they have a duty to their families to disregard church teaching in favor of some false sense of security which can never be proven to have prevented something that may have never happened or could have been treated in ways that do not destroy the natural functioning of healthy reproductive organs. And obviously not every organ that can become cancerous can be removed. My husband joked: ‘So if she fears brain cancer or lung cancer is she going to get her brain and lungs removed?’

Going back to mine and Ms. Pitt’s experiences of abuse and exploitation, I can’t help but feel that faith and belief that we can be and are worth being healed and redeemed is instead being replaced by the notion that things of faith and hope don’t matter ,instead, what matters is what amount of control we can exert over our physicality; leaving the soul isolated to fend for itself, hidden under the facade of “control”- cutting out not only body parts but cutting off our relationship with God in the process (when ironically) we are the most in need of Him.

What is your take on this?

Blessings to all.
 
Is she using cancer fears as an (unconscious) permission/rationalization to mutilate her body?
Prophylactic oophorectomy is a legitimate option for preventing both breast and ovarian cancers.

The only people who can definitively say why someone would undergo this procedure are the patient and her physician(s).
 
As Catholics we are never permitted to remove healthy organs even if there is a risk of cancer, secondly we are strongly advised not to remove a diseased organ if it will cause sterility if there is a way to cure the disease while preserving fertility.

With that said a cancerous, breast, womb, ovary can be removed due to the disease but we are encourage if of reproductive age to look at options that would preserve fertility while curing the disease. In other words if a surgeon says there is a way to not only cure the cancer but keep fertility and/or a pregnancy viable, as people of informed conscience we do have an obligation to weigh all options presented and not just opt for surgeries which strip fertility when there are sound options available. The ridding of fertility should always be the side effect of a cure for disease and not as a way to rid ourselves of a disease before we have actually developed the disease.

If we are Catholics the rationalizations that might be permissive for non Catholics may not be permissive for us and this is why I brought this up. It may seem brutally unfair, especially when other faith allow certain practices but when you look at WHY the church has imposed these obligations it makes sense.
 
My understanding is that the type of cancer prevalent in her family is particularly aggressive. Not that anyone ever wants to get cancer, but from what I remember reading back when she had her mastectomy that the death rate from the type that ran in her family was over 90%. I think that definitely makes a difference in decision making, especially since she also (if I recall) has the genetic markers that made it likely she would develop that cancer.

I do think that affects decision making. It’s not a “what-if” extreme prevention situation, it was more a “if I don’t do this, I am incredibly likely to get this disease and die from it.”

I hadn’t heard about this.
 
From the National Catholic Bioethics Center regarding prophylactic surgeries, sppecifically those aimed at preventing breast and ovarian cancers:
To sum up then, even though a woman with multiple risk factors can never categorically prove that she will develop cancer in the future, she may nevertheless arrive at prudential certitude that she will develop the disease after carefully assessing the various risk factors. Insofar as she achieves that prudential certitude within herself, she not only may, but ought to consider seriously the possibility of undergoing risk-reduction surgery.
emphasis mine

Only a woman and her physician(s) can decide what’s the correct course of action when in the situation Jolie found herself in.
 
As Catholics we are never permitted to remove healthy organs even if there is a risk of cancer, secondly we are strongly advised not to remove a diseased organ if it will cause sterility if there is a way to cure the disease while preserving fertility.
This isn’t an accurate presentation of Church teaching.
 
As Catholics we are never permitted to remove healthy organs even if there is a risk of cancer, secondly we are strongly advised not to remove a diseased organ if it will cause sterility if there is a way to cure the disease while preserving fertility.

With that said a cancerous, breast, womb, ovary can be removed due to the disease but we are encourage if of reproductive age to look at options that would preserve fertility while curing the disease. In other words if a surgeon says there is a way to not only cure the cancer but keep fertility and/or a pregnancy viable, as people of informed conscience we do have an obligation to weigh all options presented and not just opt for surgeries which strip fertility when there are sound options available. The ridding of fertility should always be the side effect of a cure for disease and not as a way to rid ourselves of a disease before we have actually developed the disease.

If we are Catholics the rationalizations that might be permissive for non Catholics may not be permissive for us and this is why I brought this up. It may seem brutally unfair, especially when other faith allow certain practices but when you look at WHY the church has imposed these obligations it makes sense.
Can you support this position with specific citations of Church documents? I have trouble believing that the possibility of fertility trumps the presence of a proven disease. That would also imply a double standard: diseased organs unrelated to fertility may be removed, but those affecting fertility may not be - “if there is a way to preserve fertility.” There are few guarantees in medicine. Do you really think the Church requires a young woman - possibly with existing children - to go through chemotherapy, radiation, etc., on the CHANCE her, say, ovarian cancer may be cured, just in the name of preserving whatever fertility might be left in the wake of such aggressive treatment?
 
In my opinion what role does faith in God play for Catholics if we decide to let fear of the uncertainty of the future guide our decisions?

My mother got uterine cancer at 22, her mother died in her late 30’s, her 4 sisters have all had cancer and have had various surgeries or treatments. I pretty much am guaranteed to develop cancer at some point and have been vigilant and get checked frequently and have done so since I was an older teenager at 18. Now because of this risk does that mean that faith in God is futile? If I wanted to put my trust in doctors and tests and use their findings to make my decisions then I should have had a hysterectomy years ago when I had severe bleeding and abnormal cells detected, I chose not to and never developed uterine cancer.

I consider my future to be out of my hands, I will accept whatever cross God gives me and not think that even a cross that is not easy to deal with is too much for me. I lived almost 25 years running and hiding from the Lord and rejecting his cross and to look for loopholes in the CCC that would allow me to continue to reject my potential cross shows that I have worship for myself and what I think I deserve and no room or tolerance for God’s will when my own or another’s seems more appealing.

I use the testing the way a Catholic would use testing to find out which defect their child might be born with-not to frighten myself into taking an action that does not glorify the lord but separates myself from his love instead. I want to know what it is I have to accept and deal with-not what it is I need to fear.

JMHO
 
Prophylactic oophorectomy is a legitimate option for preventing both breast and ovarian cancers.

The only people who can definitively say why someone would undergo this procedure are the patient and her physician(s).
My sentiments exactly.👍
 
In my opinion what role does faith in God play for Catholics if we decide to let fear of the uncertainty of the future guide our decisions?

My mother got uterine cancer at 22, her mother died in her late 30’s, her 4 sisters have all had cancer and have had various surgeries or treatments. I pretty much am guaranteed to develop cancer at some point and have been vigilant and get checked frequently and have done so since I was an older teenager at 18. Now because of this risk does that mean that faith in God is futile? If I wanted to put my trust in doctors and tests and use their findings to make my decisions then I should have had a hysterectomy years ago when I had severe bleeding and abnormal cells detected, I chose not to and never developed uterine cancer.

JMHO
You need more information than you have here to start this conversation. Not all cancers are caused by BRCA like deletions. Uterine cancer for example has been associated with HPV infection. With as much cancer as you have had in your family, a consult might be a good idea. At the end of the day, what you do with the information is your decision and if you need help finding the moral high ground, there are specialists in your diocese who can guide you. But start from a position of knowing.
 
In my opinion what role does faith in God play for Catholics if we decide to let fear of the uncertainty of the future guide our decisions?

You’ve just made an argument that works just as well against life insurance.

My mother got uterine cancer at 22, her mother died in her late 30’s, her 4 sisters have all had cancer and have had various surgeries or treatments. I pretty much am guaranteed to develop cancer at some point and have been vigilant and get checked frequently and have done so since I was an older teenager at 18. Now because of this risk does that mean that faith in God is futile? If I wanted to put my trust in doctors and tests and use their findings to make my decisions then I should have had a hysterectomy years ago when I had severe bleeding and abnormal cells detected, I chose not to and never developed uterine cancer.

I consider my future to be out of my hands, I will accept whatever cross God gives me and not think that even a cross that is not easy to deal with is too much for me.
Angelina Jolie has six children. It’s not unreasonable for her to think that losing their mother is a cross that she should not impose on them if she has a way to improve the chance that she will be able to raise them all to adulthood.
 
To the OP - are you actually suggesting that she is possibly using cancer as an excuse to mutilate herself, like she gets off on it or something, just because you don’t agree with some of her previous life choices? Because that’s kind of messed up.

The only answer I have to this thread is, its not the business of anyone here, or the church,l what personal medical decisions she has made for herself, and I doubt she cares what anyone thinks.
 
Christ healed many sick people. He did not tell them to just suffer their illness as a cross.

The Church does not treat any illness as a cross that must be born regardless of medical teatment. Instead, the Church has a very rich history in medicine, with many hospitals all over the world treating sick people. And an equally rich history in medical ethics. Siegehammer has noted the relevant ethic position regarding this particular issue.
 
In my opinion what role does faith in God play for Catholics if we decide to let fear of the uncertainty of the future guide our decisions?

My mother got uterine cancer at 22, her mother died in her late 30’s, her 4 sisters have all had cancer and have had various surgeries or treatments. I pretty much am guaranteed to develop cancer at some point and have been vigilant and get checked frequently and have done so since I was an older teenager at 18. Now because of this risk does that mean that faith in God is futile? If I wanted to put my trust in doctors and tests and use their findings to make my decisions then I should have had a hysterectomy years ago when I had severe bleeding and abnormal cells detected, I chose not to and never developed uterine cancer.

I consider my future to be out of my hands, I will accept whatever cross God gives me and not think that even a cross that is not easy to deal with is too much for me. I lived almost 25 years running and hiding from the Lord and rejecting his cross and to look for loopholes in the CCC that would allow me to continue to reject my potential cross shows that I have worship for myself and what I think I deserve and no room or tolerance for God’s will when my own or another’s seems more appealing.

I use the testing the way a Catholic would use testing to find out which defect their child might be born with-not to frighten myself into taking an action that does not glorify the lord but separates myself from his love instead. I want to know what it is I have to accept and deal with-not what it is I need to fear.

JMHO
If you get a cut on your finger, do you wash it out and put a bandaid on it?
 
Of course. But a simple cut is not going to prevent me from giving life and being obedient to the will of God. A simple cut is more than likely not a cross or test of our faith so that’s a no brainer. To equate a minor annoyance with a life changing surgery or any other area of life where God might truly put our faithfulness and endurance to the test dismisses and diminishes the very point you wished to make. I’m not trying to put you off but I don’t see how a cut finger figures into your point.
 
Hello Everyone

I know most of us have heard about Ms. Pitt’s double mastectomy a while back and today we are again hearing about her surgery to remove both ovaries (one healthy and one suspicious for cancer). Not sure if she still has her uterus and cervix but I suspect that at some point she will remove them as well.

She lost her grand-mother, mother and aunts to breast and ovarian cancer and as a mother with children is terrified of dying of the disease as well. However, I have to ask one question based on her admitted history of sexualization and self harm: Is she using cancer fears as an (unconscious) permission/rationalization to mutilate her body?

Looking at her admitted past which includes tragic sexualization and self harm could it be another form of the old self abuse now manifesting via surgery where surgeons are the ones doing harm and harm that she is directing out of paranoia, anguish, grief and a desire to strip herself of her outward signs of female sexuality as a response to having been abused as a child?

I ask these questions not to demean her or any women who may fear cancer, have been abused or struggle with the cross of self harm but because I (like Ms. Pitt) have an extensive history of reproductive cancer in my family and have had my own cancer scares and biopsies to detect malignancies in my breast and to investigate possible abnormalities in the cells of my cervix. Praise God no cancers were discovered and any abnormalities are being monitored but no surgeries have been considered. I am also an incest victim and have self harmed as a young person and have had emotional struggles, suicidal intentions and sexual victimization as an adult.

My childhood sexualization and addiction to self harm along with the sex abuse scandals in the church caused me to abandon my faith for a quarter century out of confusion and misplaced anger. I have been at the very bottom of low self esteem, self loathing, anger, fear, pain and insecurity in myself as a woman, wife and mother. At the height of my pain and fear any doctor could have convinced me that the only way to get control of the threat of cancer would be to take out my organs (healthy or sick) and in my fragile state I might have found this cathartic: a way of exercising control over my body when I felt I had no control over the things done to my body by others who controlled and in a sense were still controlled my life by way of the terror I still felt when recalling-in PTSD induced flashbacks, triggers, etc,- the things done to me. This is the point I’m making, as a Catholic but also as a woman. When is it sensible to turn to preemptive measures and when does that desire become less about stopping a disease process and more about considering YOURSELF (along with breasts and other reproductive organs that are part of our sexual identity as well as gender) the disease that must be destroyed and cut out?

There are 2 genetic inherited genes for breast cancer. If you have them, you will get breast cancer sometime in your life and it will kill you. BRCA1 and the BRCA2. Ms Pitt did have one of those genes. She had cancer in one breast. The other breast would have cancer say in 6 months. Both have to go. Now, her ovaries and uterus are there and she has been reluctant to let them go. BUT Estrogens promote cancer. She can if she has not developed and ovarian cancer. If she has it in one, she will get it in both. This is not frivolous thinking. It is proven science. Her previous surgeries saddened her. She wasn’t flippant about them. She didn’t want to loose ovaries or her uterus as she wanted another child (crazy woman). Anyway, if the disease is raising its ugly head, again. The organs have to go. It is not body mutulation but life saving surgery. Pray for her. She has a lot of responsibilities w acting, children, directing and an Ambassador for children around the world. PHEW> God bless her. tweedlealice
 
Surely not every decision in life, especially of this magnitude, needs to be filtered through “what the church teaches”.
 
In my opinion what role does faith in God play for Catholics if we decide to let fear of the uncertainty of the future guide our decisions?

My mother got uterine cancer at 22, her mother died in her late 30’s, her 4 sisters have all had cancer and have had various surgeries or treatments. I pretty much am guaranteed to develop cancer at some point and have been vigilant and get checked frequently and have done so since I was an older teenager at 18. Now because of this risk does that mean that faith in God is futile? If I wanted to put my trust in doctors and tests and use their findings to make my decisions then I should have had a hysterectomy years ago when I had severe bleeding and abnormal cells detected, I chose not to and never developed uterine cancer.

I consider my future to be out of my hands, I will accept whatever cross God gives me and not think that even a cross that is not easy to deal with is too much for me. I lived almost 25 years running and hiding from the Lord and rejecting his cross and to look for loopholes in the CCC that would allow me to continue to reject my potential cross shows that I have worship for myself and what I think I deserve and no room or tolerance for God’s will when my own or another’s seems more appealing.

I use the testing the way a Catholic would use testing to find out which defect their child might be born with-not to frighten myself into taking an action that does not glorify the lord but separates myself from his love instead. I want to know what it is I have to accept and deal with-not what it is I need to fear.

JMHO
your family hx is concerning. you take a walk w wisdom and the medical community. But w wisdom, if tests come back positive, it is better to have a live, healthy Catholic,instead of a dead Catholic. No Babies either way. No fear w Jesus. The uterus and ovaries would go and you would adopt. A positive outcome. leave diseased organs in-nothing positive.
May God continue to walk w you and send His love to surround you. By His stripes you are healed.
In Christs love,
tweedlealice 🙂
 
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