Angelina Jolie-Self Mutilation or Preventatives?- Not Sure Where To Place This Thread

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OP,

you are not obliged to seek treatment and can choose to let nature take its course. There are people who willingly accept suffering and death and offer it up for some intention.

But people are free to choose treatment, even if that treatment is pre-emptive, like the Jolie example. I guess we need to trust doctors on occasion. 🤷
 
OP,

you are not obliged to seek treatment and can choose to let nature take its course. There are people who willingly accept suffering and death and offer it up for some intention.
But if they have dependent children or loving spouses that need them, that may not be a reasonable moral choice.

A mother of an infant or a toddler, for instance, ought to make staying alive job #1 (or at least #2 or #3).

I think young children would not understand why their mother chose to bail on them. In fact, it might permanently sour them on religion.
 
Of course. But a simple cut is not going to prevent me from giving life and being obedient to the will of God. A simple cut is more than likely not a cross or test of our faith so that’s a no brainer. To equate a minor annoyance with a life changing surgery or any other area of life where God might truly put our faithfulness and endurance to the test dismisses and diminishes the very point you wished to make. I’m not trying to put you off but I don’t see how a cut finger figures into your point.
If you didn’t wash out a cut and put a bandaid on it, you could end up losing your hand/arm/life to several different types of very nasty infections. By your argument that one shouldn’t have preventative surgery, you should wait until your hand is swollen to twice its normal size and you have red streaks running up your arm before you even wash your hand. I’d say that people who have lost limbs or their lives to these kinds of infections probably wouldn’t describe them as a “minor annoyance.”

Tell me, should women be required to give birth alone and without any medical intervention, and if they and their babies die of something eminently preventable/treatable–say, shoulder dystocia, hemorrhage, infection, etc–is that God’s will? Or does He want us to use the faculties of intelligence and reason that He gave us to avoid such tragedies to the best of our ability?

My point here isn’t to badger you–it’s to determine why you think that some interventions are acceptable from a moral standpoint, but others aren’t.

The ability to give life is a wonderful gift. So is the gift of a healthy body, or a great mind, but that doesn’t mean that we leave babies with severe mental or physical defects outside to die of neglect like the ancient Romans did. As Catholics, we respect the gift of life and the human soul far, far above either the ability to reproduce or to offer brilliant theological insights. We are not designed exclusively for reproduction. Our worth is based on our being formed in the image and likeness of God, not on our ability to produce babies. As such, the life of a woman is more important than whether or not she can have children in the future: see Humanae Vitae here:

Lawful Therapeutic Means

“15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.”
 
But if they have dependent children or loving spouses that need them, that may not be a reasonable moral choice.

A mother of an infant or a toddler, for instance, ought to make staying alive job #1 (or at least #2 or #3).

I think young children would not understand why their mother chose to bail on them. In fact, it might permanently sour them on religion.
No, of course not. I meant as a general principle, not something that mothers of young children should do. I don’t think that rejecting treatment in such a situation would be a moral choice.

The OP has accepted God’s will in her life and is offering up her health trials. I don’t think this is a problem. But it is a problem to assume weird stuff about other people’s healthcare choices, ie. seeing them as self mutilation. It’s really not a good way to think about it.
 
Of course. But a simple cut is not going to prevent me from giving life and being obedient to the will of God. A simple cut is more than likely not a cross or test of our faith so that’s a no brainer. To equate a minor annoyance with a life changing surgery or any other area of life where God might truly put our faithfulness and endurance to the test dismisses and diminishes the very point you wished to make. I’m not trying to put you off but I don’t see how a cut finger figures into your point.
It seems that you either misunderstand Church teaching on the subject of prophylactic surgeries in the face of things such as the BRCA genes, or are willfully ignorant. Your viewpoint is in no way supported by Church teaching.

The very aggressive cancers that frequently result from these genes are not tests sent by a capricious God, but rather biological aberrations that can now sometimes be prevented or treated by modern medicine, thank God.
 
********I wrote to the National Catholic Bio Ethics Center to get further education in regards to my original post. They were kind enough to direct me to a article which advises women who have tested positive for the BRC gene as to how to approach the decision to have preventative surgery.

I sincerely apologize to all whom I have offended. I stand corrected. The personal opinions I have regarding this issue remain the same. However, I take what the church has to say as the ultimate aithority and will advise anyone to read the article below to aide in their decision making.

MAKING SENSE OUT OF BIOETHICS FR. TAD PACHOLCZYK, PhD DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION National Catholic Bioethics Center, Philadelphia www.ncbcenter.org kind

This article was sent to me as a pdf attachment. I have attached it here. Please message me if you were unable to view/download it.

Drastic Measures’ and Cancer Decisions

During the 1990s, scientists discovered two gene mutations in the BRCA family of genes which significantly increase a woman’s chances of developing breast and ovarian cancer. Consequently, as noted in a recent Los Angeles Times article by Anna Gorman: “Many oncologists recommend that women with the mutations consider having their ovaries, fallopian tubes and breasts removed prophylactically [as a precautionary measure] to reduce risk.” Yet controversy exists regarding this recommendation. Precautionary surgery of this kind has been termed “mutilating” and “extreme” and some question whether it is, in fact, justifiable, given that the organs appear to be healthy (no cancer is yet detectable), and there is a limited probability that the disease may one day appear. Some medical professionals instead encourage frequent monitoring and screening of patients with the BRCA mutation, so that if cancer appears, and as soon as it appears, aggressive surgery could then be pursued.

On one side, then, are those who stress that the integrity and order of the human body should be respected and not unduly violated (the “Principle of Integrity”), while on the other are those who stress that an individual organ or a part of the human body may be sacrificed if that sacrifice means continued survival for the whole person (the “Principle of Totality”). The solution to the dilemma of preventative surgery will lie somewhere in the middle, with emphasis being placed upon the weightier Principle of Totality. The decision to undergo preventative surgery will thus be ethically justifiable and reasonable in certain cases. Nevertheless, even the scientist who discovered the BRCA mutation, Mary-Claire King, PhD, has acknowledged the incredible challenge raised by her discovery: “It is a very difficult thing to recommend prophylactic oophorectomy [removal of the ovaries] when it is healthy women you are talking about. It is a radical thing to consider in a feminist age.”

When it comes to a bilateral mastectomy [removal of both breasts], the difficulty is only compounded. As another researcher observed, “In western society at least, there is no organ as connected to femininity, sensuality, sexuality, adulthood and motherhood as the breast.” Gorman, the LA Times staff writer who tested positive for the BRCA mutation and ended up opting to have her ovaries removed, described how she could not quite bring herself to have her breasts removed as well, even though her father, grandmother and aunt had all died at an early age from cancer: “I was still getting used to the idea of losing my ovaries. I had always viewed a preventive mastectomy as a drastic measure. It seemed I risked losing nearly everything — at least physically — that def ined me as a woman.”

The real costs of this kind of surgery remind us of the importance of making a right and ethical decision for our circumstances. Although there is a heightened probability of disease, there is never any guarantee that a particular woman with the BRCA mutation will develop cancer. Some women will go on to develop cancer; others will not. So while the surgical removal of ovaries and/ or breasts will prevent the disease from developing in some women, in others, it will make no difference, since they were never going to get the disease in the first place. In that situation, healthy organs (which secrete important hormones for the overall health of the person) would have been removed unnecessarily. As one researcher noted, “Many women who undergo prophylactic mastectomy will undoubtedly benefit from it, but nobody will ever know which ones . .

”Given this strict inability to know who will develop cancer and who will not, other risk factors besides the BRCA mutation should be carefully considered before choosing to undergo preventative surgery. A strong family history of breast cancer at an early age, the absence of a full term pregnancy, an abortion or miscarriage of the first pregnancy, or a male relative who develops breast cancer are among the factors known to increase a woman’s risk of developing breast cancer. In the end, after careful weighing and reflection, a woman should personally be convinced that she will develop cancer in the future in order to justify undergoing this radical kind of surgery.

Even in the face of several known risk factors, however, a woman may still wish to delay such preventative surgery until she has had the opportunity to have children, or she may freely choose against it altogether. To sum up then, even though a woman with multiple risk factors can never categorically prove that she will develop cancer in the future, she may nevertheless arrive at prudential certitude that she will develop the disease after carefully assessing the various risk factors. Insofar as she achieves that prudential certitude within herself, she not only may, but ought to consider seriously the possibility of undergoing risk reduction surgery.
 
********I wrote to the National Catholic Bio Ethics Center to get further education in regards to my original post. They were kind enough to direct me to a article which advises women who have tested positive for the BRC gene as to how to approach the decision to have preventative surgery.

I sincerely apologize to all whom I have offended. I stand corrected. The personal opinions I have regarding this issue remain the same. However, I take what the church has to say as the ultimate aithority and will advise anyone to read the article below to aide in their decision making.

MAKING SENSE OUT OF BIOETHICS FR. TAD PACHOLCZYK, PhD DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION National Catholic Bioethics Center, Philadelphia www.ncbcenter.org kind

This article was sent to me as a pdf attachment. I have attached it here. Please message me if you were unable to view/download it.

Drastic Measures’ and Cancer Decisions

During the 1990s, scientists discovered two gene mutations in the BRCA family of genes which significantly increase a woman’s chances of developing breast and ovarian cancer. Consequently, as noted in a recent Los Angeles Times article by Anna Gorman: “Many oncologists recommend that women with the mutations consider having their ovaries, fallopian tubes and breasts removed prophylactically [as a precautionary measure] to reduce risk.” Yet controversy exists regarding this recommendation. Precautionary surgery of this kind has been termed “mutilating” and “extreme” and some question whether it is, in fact, justifiable, given that the organs appear to be healthy (no cancer is yet detectable), and there is a limited probability that the disease may one day appear. Some medical professionals instead encourage frequent monitoring and screening of patients with the BRCA mutation, so that if cancer appears, and as soon as it appears, aggressive surgery could then be pursued.

On one side, then, are those who stress that the integrity and order of the human body should be respected and not unduly violated (the “Principle of Integrity”), while on the other are those who stress that an individual organ or a part of the human body may be sacrificed if that sacrifice means continued survival for the whole person (the “Principle of Totality”). The solution to the dilemma of preventative surgery will lie somewhere in the middle, with emphasis being placed upon the weightier Principle of Totality. The decision to undergo preventative surgery will thus be ethically justifiable and reasonable in certain cases. Nevertheless, even the scientist who discovered the BRCA mutation, Mary-Claire King, PhD, has acknowledged the incredible challenge raised by her discovery: “It is a very difficult thing to recommend prophylactic oophorectomy [removal of the ovaries] when it is healthy women you are talking about. It is a radical thing to consider in a feminist age.”

When it comes to a bilateral mastectomy [removal of both breasts], the difficulty is only compounded. As another researcher observed, “In western society at least, there is no organ as connected to femininity, sensuality, sexuality, adulthood and motherhood as the breast.” Gorman, the LA Times staff writer who tested positive for the BRCA mutation and ended up opting to have her ovaries removed, described how she could not quite bring herself to have her breasts removed as well, even though her father, grandmother and aunt had all died at an early age from cancer: “I was still getting used to the idea of losing my ovaries. I had always viewed a preventive mastectomy as a drastic measure. It seemed I risked losing nearly everything — at least physically — that def ined me as a woman.”

The real costs of this kind of surgery remind us of the importance of making a right and ethical decision for our circumstances. Although there is a heightened probability of disease, there is never any guarantee that a particular woman with the BRCA mutation will develop cancer. Some women will go on to develop cancer; others will not. So while the surgical removal of ovaries and/ or breasts will prevent the disease from developing in some women, in others, it will make no difference, since they were never going to get the disease in the first place. In that situation, healthy organs (which secrete important hormones for the overall health of the person) would have been removed unnecessarily. As one researcher noted, “Many women who undergo prophylactic mastectomy will undoubtedly benefit from it, but nobody will ever know which ones . .

”Given this strict inability to know who will develop cancer and who will not, other risk factors besides the BRCA mutation should be carefully considered before choosing to undergo preventative surgery. A strong family history of breast cancer at an early age, the absence of a full term pregnancy, an abortion or miscarriage of the first pregnancy, or a male relative who develops breast cancer are among the factors known to increase a woman’s risk of developing breast cancer. In the end, after careful weighing and reflection, a woman should personally be convinced that she will develop cancer in the future in order to justify undergoing this radical kind of surgery.

Even in the face of several known risk factors, however, a woman may still wish to delay such preventative surgery until she has had the opportunity to have children, or she may freely choose against it altogether. To sum up then, even though a woman with multiple risk factors can never categorically prove that she will develop cancer in the future, she may nevertheless arrive at prudential certitude that she will develop the disease after carefully assessing the various risk factors. Insofar as she achieves that prudential certitude within herself, she not only may, but ought to consider seriously the possibility of undergoing risk reduction surgery.
Thank you, OP.
 
Someone mentioned on this thread that Catholics cannot remove organs in similar situations-is this true?

OP:

To get to the “gist” of your question,no I don’t believe she did this out of a self-loathing of her feminine parts/abuse experiences.
It seems she did it due to being highly susceptible to receiving those cancers with the family history.
Im really sorry for what you have suffered though.
Sometimes when people have sufferered something,they can have a tendency to “project” things onto other people or situations and misinterpret those situations or others motives through the lens of their own experience.
So the tendency to look for a “psychological” cause for everything should be avoided as some people over psychologise life.
Logically,the “psychological theory” you suggested also doesn’t add up because if that was her motive-conscious or not- then she wouldn’t have got reconstructive surgery and breast implants placed after,she would have left herself without breasts.

I think you should just take it for what it is-one persons choice-in the same way as if a person/people get plastic surgery others shouldn’t let that decision dictate to them what they should do,how they should feel,or the messages they internalise about themselves.
Its also important not to idolise celebrities,put them on pedestals or be influenced by them.
Overidentifying with them is unhealthy too.
They are just people like anybody else./B
 
Thank you for the article, OP. I think your last post was very gracious. It is very rare to find someone apologize for being mistaken, on an internet forum…
 
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