angels and saints

[mercygate]

SPOKENWORD:

Again , Im going to disagree, Anytime the word saints is used in the New Testament it refers to earthly saints. Heavenly saints were refered as Elders. God Bless

Elders? Only in Revelation, where every use of the word refers to the 24 elders around the Throne of God. The 236 remaining occurrences of the word “elder/s” in Scripture are men of wisdom, leaders. Who, then, are the “great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands”?

If heavenly saints are referred to as Elders, and only men can be Elders, then you are saying that no women or children are to be found in Heaven. If the word “saint” is limited only to earthly Christians, then I suppose you would say they stop being saints when they get to Heaven. :whacky:

 

[mercygate]

SPOKENWORD:

Again , Im going to disagree, Anytime the word saints is used in the New Testament it refers to earthly saints. Heavenly saints were refered as Elders. God Bless

Elders? Only in Revelation, where every use of the word refers to the 24 elders around the Throne of God. The 236 remaining occurrences of the word “elder/s” in Scripture refer to men of wisdom, leaders. Who, then, are the people in the “great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands”? (Rev. 7:9)

If the holy ones in heaven are referred to as Elders, and only men can be Elders, then you are saying that no women or children are to be found in Heaven. If the word “saint” is limited only to earthly Christians, then I suppose you would say they stop being saints when they get to Heaven. :whacky:

 

[SPOKENWORD]

mercygate:

Elders? Only in Revelation, where every use of the word refers to the 24 elders around the Throne of God. The 236 remaining occurrences of the word “elder/s” in Scripture refer to men of wisdom, leaders. Who, then, are the people in the “great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands”? (Rev. 7:9)

If the holy ones in heaven are referred to as Elders, and only men can be Elders, then you are saying that no women or children are to be found in Heaven. If the word “saint” is limited only to earthly Christians, then I suppose you would say they stop being saints when they get to Heaven. :whacky:

If you have a problem its not with me but with the vision St.John had.Im only repeating what He wrote. We are to assume that the 24 are the 12 leaders of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles.Again the problem is understanding like you claim in rev 7 vs…9. Those elders did not know who those 144,000 were. Isnt that interesting that they didnt know they were saints. These 144,000 had their names written in the book of life and the Angels put God seal on them on earth. These earthly saints were then lifted up into the throne room for they had survived the great period of trial[tribulation].Yes ,they did become heavenly saints ,like we will when we die. The question is when did this occur or has it ocurred already,remembering this is a vision John saw. Has this vision been fulfilled already? Interesting. God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Fidelis:

You are welcome to your opinion . However, Catholics are not Sola Scriptura Christians and that is the not the context from whence the question came. Ruby wanted to know what the Church, which has the fullness of the Gospel, teaches, and that is the answer we gave.

Hi Fidelis,You dont even believe what Exporter wrote that your own Cardinal Spellmen wrote. God Bless.

 

[drforjc]

Spokenword,

Cardinal Spellman did not write what Exporter posted.

He is saying one prayer begins “Holy Michael…”
and another is “Prayer to St. Thomas Aquinas.”

Exporter is saying that based on the beginning of 2 prayers “Angels are not called Saints”
I doubt that sentence is taken from the missal.

It is his Exporters statement reflecting no one’s authority but his own.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

drforjc:

Spokenword,

Cardinal Spellman did not write what Exporter posted.

He is saying one prayer begins “Holy Michael…”
and another is “Prayer to St. Thomas Aquinas.”

Exporter is saying that based on the beginning of 2 prayers “Angels are not called Saints”
I doubt that sentence is taken from the missal.

It is his Exporters statement reflecting no one’s authority but his own.

Hi Dr. Sorry for misreading his statement.God Bless

 

[Exporter]

drforjc:

Spokenword,

Cardinal Spellman did not write what Exporter posted.

He is saying one prayer begins “Holy Michael…”
and another is “Prayer to St. Thomas Aquinas.”

Exporter is saying that based on the beginning of 2 prayers “Angels are not called Saints”
I doubt that sentence is taken from the missal.

It is his Exporters statement reflecting no one’s authority but his own.

---

drforjc,

Do you, drforjc, contend that I, Exporter, made up what is in the St. Joseph’s Missal? Am I telling a lie? I am simply reading and relaying what IS in the St. Joseph’s Missal.

**I could have used 50 or 60 examples, but one example is sufficient. **
You doubt that sentance was taken from that Missal? How wrong you are. Again, you have said I am a liar. I would not lie about something like this.

---

Go to your local library or a website, and find The St. Joseph Missal , copyright September 1950, by the Catholic Book Publishing Co…N.Y…any subsequent printing should suffice. Look at prayers just after the Ordinary of the Mass.

I am astounded that you think I am lying. Why do you think I have a motive to lie? I didn’t attack you!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Exporter,

It is difficult to know what items of your content was an exact quote and which was your opinion. That which you used quotation marks for was understood to be from the missal. That which you did not was understood to be of your own opinion.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article entitled “Communion of Saints” has the *imprimatur *of the Church as well.

It says (note the use of the ‘quote’ feature )…
newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

St. Thomas teaches (III:8:4) that the angels, though not redeemed, enter the communion of saints because they come under Christ’s power and receive of His gratia capitis.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

“Lives of Saints”, Published by John J. Crawley & Co., Inc, includes “St. Michael, Archangel.”

And from the Catholic Encyclopedia article entitled “St. Michael the Archangel”:

The Gelasian Sacramentary (seventh century) gives the feast “S. Michaelis Archangeli”, and the Gregorian Sacramentary (eighth century), “Dedicatio Basilionis S. Angeli Michaelis”, 29 Sept. … . Boniface IV (608-15) built on the Moles Hadriani in honour of him, a church, which was styled St. Michaelis inter nubes (in summitate circi).

It seems these ancient Sacramentary also insists upon Michael being a saint.

Shall we continue?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

See also the Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 335

 

[drforjc]

Exporter,
relax, I wasn’t calling you a liar-- itsjustdave in his post clarified exactly what I meant. I’m sorry if you took it that way.
(Thank you, Dave)
But are you saying the sentence “Angels are not called saints” is in the missal?
Yes, the prayer “Holy Michael…” and “Prayer to St. Thomas Aquinas” are written that way in the Missal-- but the leap from that to the conclusion that Angels cannot be called saints would seem to be unjustified.
Do you really think that Cardinal Spellman would contradict the longstanding tradition of the church?

 

[Fidelis]

Exporter:

When in doubt…go tttto a St. Joseph’s Missal or the Catechism.

And the Angels are not called Saints. Angel is a different species than the soul of a man. The St. Joseph Missal Imprimature was Francis Cardinad Spellman, he ought to know.

Hi Exporter - I have a copy of the Sunday edition of this missal–could you tell me what page this is on? Thanks.

 

[Exporter]

Fidelis:

Hi Exporter - I have a copy of the Sunday edition of this missal–could you tell me what page this is on? Thanks.

---

I do not know what “The Sunday Edition of the Missal” is. So I cannot tell you anything about it.

I know that the St. Joseph’s Daily Missal has been used all over the USA for maybe 150 years. It is THE Daily Missal.

I could add to this conversation, but I will not. The reason is that what I write allows some to be confused. I don’t want to do that. I am usually understood, but not here.