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FCEGM
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FCEGM;5373182:
:hug1:
Jennifer, besides reading the posts on CAF what else are you reading to help in your Catholic formation? If you would like some recommendations, I know many of us would be happy to oblige.
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treeleaf
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How, exactly (does anyone KNOW this for sure) unless God has spoken to them directly? Is it really that important in the great scheme of things anyway?
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Sailor_Kenshin
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But God has spoken to us directly—through the Bible, and His Son, the Eternal Word.
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Holly3278
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Each new soul is created at conception. The doctrine of the pre-existence is a false doctrine that Mormons teach.
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kage_ar
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It means that God knows everything. He knows every person He will create, He knows this before he created that soul and that body.But this scripture is what makes me think about it;
"before you were in your mother’s womb, I knew you".
What does this scripture mean then?
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Zundrah
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But I get told different things all the time…
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FCEGM
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But you have been given a consistent teaching on your original question here.
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Zundrah
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That is very true, good times!But you have been given a consistent teaching on your original question here.
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treeleaf
Guest
He has spoken directly to the people who wrote the Bible, (we hope). He has spoken through them (not directly) to the rest of us. Anyway, I don’t think the Bible says anything about souls being created at the same time as bodies or am I wrong? Apparently Catholic doctrine does say this though, judging by all these answers, but I’m not sure I fully trust everything that is Catholic doctrine alone and has not been mentioned in the Bible. For example everyone was told limbo existed until the current Pope decided it didn’t, (which I’m inclined to believe more than the view that it did exist). I’m not sure all the Church leaders throughout the ages have been as holy as the should have been either. Sorry if this offends anyone, I don’t mean to, just telling the truth. You may wonder why I’ve chosen to join a Catholic forum if I don’t automatically believe everything the Church teaches. It’s because I was brought up Catholic and do believe the vast majority of it’s teachings and do trust it more than I trust any other non-Catholic Christian forum.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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Does this mean you reject both the Magisterium and tradition? That makes you kind of sola scriptura. Or moving along the cafeteria line.
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treeleaf
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I wouldn’t say I reject everything Catholic at all. I just don’t go along with every little thing taught - the things that aren’t going to make any difference to love of God or salvation anyway. It makes me whatever you feel like calling me, I suppose - I don’t dwell on what label I should have.
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Stylites
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“Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.”But this scripture is what makes me think about it;
"before you were in your mother’s womb, I knew you".
What does this scripture mean then?
Jeremiah 1:5
Nowhere does it state that before we were conceived we were angels falling from the sky. Why not just cabbage heads laying in the field? Or rainbows arching across the clouds?
Seriously, why wouldn’t this scripture point to the omniscience and Divine will of God? Also, human souls in heaven are not angels - they are two different beings with different natures and graces and purposes.
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Stylites
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The question of when life begins is not one of those “little things taught” considering that millions of people are murdered for convenience or superstition each year.
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treeleaf
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Whether our souls existed before we were concieved or only at the point of conception (which is what’s being discussed here, not whether life only begins at the point of birth) makes no difference to what you’re talking about now. It’s wrong to murder either way (in or out of the womb). We all know the difference between right and wrong and I don’t see how whether our souls exist before or only at conception, or whether limbo exists or doesn’t makes a difference to loving God and living a moral life.
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FCEGM
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We know because Christ teaches through His Church. It’s important because how we are conceived, body and soul simultaneously, very much impacts our understanding of who we are and thus our relationship to our Creator. Unlike the angels who are purely spirit-creatures, we have been designed by our Creator as creatures of both spirit and matter and thus His creation of a human person is immediate in both spirit and matter. This is one reason why the Resurrection of Our Lord is such an important aspect of our Faith: it reveals the depth of the goodness of both the created spirit and the created matter (the physical body) since the latter is meant to be with the former in glory if we are faithful to Him. We are not spirits waiting to return home; we are beings of spirit and matter waiting that fulfillment in Christ of the gift of our creation. All matters of Catholic doctrine are ultimately tied to each other in a unity.
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Stylites
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I see your point. But where it matters is in the eyes of the world which sees divisions and doubts and individual interpretations within the Church and can then pooh-pooh important moral truths which she teaches. If the Church teaches that life begins at conception then believers ought to accept it rather than state that God hadn’t personally and directly told anyone currently living.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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And who decides what ‘every little thing’ means? Who decides what’s necessary to your salvation?
You?
Guess again.
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treeleaf
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No, not me, God, the Bible and basic common sense about what really matters. How does it matter one way or another whether our souls are created before conception or at conception? Are you so sure the Church has had everyone’s best interests at heart throughout the ages when some of it’s doctrines came into being? I’m not, but that’s fine if everyone else is, just please respect that not everyone is the same and that doesn’t make anyone with slightly different views evil or outrightly wrong.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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Evil? Perhaps not. Wrong? Yes.
I believe you are saying that you fit the definition of a cafeteria Catholic. We do have to obey and believe the Magisterium and Tradition as well.
To the OP: funnily enough this very topic just came up on Web of Faith. Frs. Trigilio and Levis said conclusively that our souls did not exist before God created them and united them with our bodies.
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treeleaf
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Consider this: If I’d come on this forum in the previous Pope’s reign and said I didn’t believe in the existence of limbo, I would have been told I was wrong in no uncertain terms. The current Pope has now said it doesn’t exist. I just don’t see how anyone can be absolutely certain about some things (like the topic in this thread, who originally decided when souls came into being and how did they come to that conclusion?). I mean, someone obviously once said limbo existed and all Catholics must believe in it.
I don’t want to start a full-scale argument here as I’m out-numbered for a start
, and don’t want to cause any rifts, but just think the point I make is something to think about.- Status