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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Are there any scriptures that speaks of angels having free will?
Were the angels predestined to sin?
Were the angels predestined to sin?
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Valke2
Guest
there’s a paradox with angels, I think. In the Torah, they are only messengers from God sent on specific missions. They never oppose Him. However, we read on Yom Kippur that even the angels tremble before God and that they are judged. SO, if they are judged, then they must have free will. Otherwise, what would be the point of judging them?
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Verbum
Guest
Hi Daniel,
The simple fact that some angels were punished for sinning means that they have free will.
St.Thomas Aquinas also explains that all intelligent creatures have free will. You cannot have intelligence without free will. Intelligence shows you the choices If you have a choice, you have free will.
Verbum
The simple fact that some angels were punished for sinning means that they have free will.
St.Thomas Aquinas also explains that all intelligent creatures have free will. You cannot have intelligence without free will. Intelligence shows you the choices If you have a choice, you have free will.
Verbum
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Mystophilus
Guest
In Zechariah 1:12, an angel questions the righteousness of God’s actions. Passages such as Isaiah 23 and Ezekiel 27 are taken as referring to Satan’s fall. 2 Peter 2:4 refers to angels sinning. All of these things require free will, I would say.
No more so than anyone else: i.e., it all depends upon one’s view of the interrelationship between omnipotence and free will.
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NotWorthy
Guest
I was listening to Fr. Robert Altier’s teaching of the Catechism on CD’s one day and he mentioned something that struck me. He says the Church teaches that angels are incapable of changing their mind. Once an angel sins, he is incapable of repenting.
I found that interesting.
I found that interesting.
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jemfinch
Guest
That idea is based on Anselm, a doctor of the Church. I recently moved and can’t find his book in which I read it, but the idea, if I remember correctly, is that Angels were given a will to do things: to serve the Lord, and to serve themselves. Once an angel chose to serve himself, however, he lost his will to serve the Lord, and any repentance of that fact can only be motivated by his desire to serve himself (i.e., to avoid hell). I think that’s right; then again, I skipped that medieval philosophy class a lot more than I should have
Jeremy
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
where is the passage of angels tremble?
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Valke2
Guest
"The great shofar is sounded, the still small voice is heard, and the angels tremble with fear as they procalim: ‘Behold! The Day of Judgment!’ Even the armies of heaven are to be brought to judgment, for in your sight even they are not innocent. You cause all who come into the world to pass before you like a flock of sheep. Like a shepherd seeking out his flock and causing them to pass under his staff, you cause every living soul to pass before you; you count, reckon and review every creature, determining its lifetime and inscribing its destiny.
It is part of a prayer we say on Rosh Hashana. If I remember correctly, it is a prayer that was first said by a rabbi who was tortured, having his limbs amputated and brought to the synagouge, whereupon he said the prayer and died.
The more famous portion, perhaps reads:
“On Rosh HaShanah it is inscribed, and on Yom Kippur it is sealed: how many will pass away and how many will be born, who will live and who will die; who will die prematurely and who will live out his days; who will perish by fire and who by water; who by sword and who by wild animals; who by hunger and who by thirst; who by earthquake and who by plague; who by strangling and who by stoning; who will have rest and who will wander about; who will be at peace and who will be tormented; who will be at ease and who will be bothered; who will become poor and who will become rich; who will be brought low and who will be raised up.”
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awalt
Guest
Check out Jude 6:
And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;
And the angels that did not keep their own position but left their proper dwelling have been kept by him in eternal chains in the nether gloom until the judgment of the great day;
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spauline
Guest
I am very interested in this question. Seems to be somewhat unsettled from what I have gotten.
I seem to recall hearing or reading that the God “illumined Himself” to the angels after their intial creation until He had revealed everything of the Plan He had for our Creation and History (including, of course, the Incarnation and all its implications). At the conclusion of this “revelatory period”, at least the BAD angels (and possibly some or all of the good angels) were then “tested” in an act of free will as to whether
they would serve God or not. The test would be irrevocable, as you cite, seeing as the purely spiritual nature of the angelic intelllect is able to completely and totally analyze all aspects of a question to such a degree that once it makes up its mind, it cannot change it. Hence, the angels that rejected God could NOT repent, and so are irredeemable. Those that passed the test were admitted to the beatific vision.
But there seem to be unsettled issues: one view, I think I heard, believes the angels in the revelatory period were making no free choices, seeing as the view goes that a creature cannot change a choice of the will if it exists outside of space and time as we know it ( and this is one of the reasons why it is supposed humans are damned as they cross the threshold of death, seeing as their wills, being turned toward creatures, can no longer choose any other end than what they last chose in this life).
The other view, I recall being espoused by an EWTN expert priest, is that during the revelatory period, the angels were ACTIVELY loving God under the auspices of grace even before the test.
In either case, it is to be noted that the no angel saw God in the beatific vision prior to and including the test, as once one sees God in the beatific vision, one cannot sin because one cannot turn away from the indescribable beauty.
so at and before the test, the angels were in heaven but didn’t see the beatific vision. after the test, neither the good nor bad angels have free will anymore, as those in the beatific vision cannot sin, whereas, as mentioned, the demons cannot repent.
it’s also interesting to note that Jesus adds to St. Faustina of the Divine Mercy that the demons were not forgiven also because they “knew so much.”
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spauline
Guest
as a side note, it seems that just as the demons are not forgiven, not merely because they cannot repent, but also because their rejection of God was included with a knowledge of the totality of Catholic doctrine and development, that a parallel situation will occur at the end of the world: after the fullness of the Redemption of the Gentiles and a completion of doctrinal development, as well as a taste of the full fruits of Christ’s Redemption, the Gentiles will “radically and irrevocably” (as did the demons) rebel against the Gospel, making the sin historically unforgivable, as well as practically irredeemable.
that’s my theory, but I think its fairly in synch with a Catholic understanding of things.
that’s my theory, but I think its fairly in synch with a Catholic understanding of things.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
I thought the scirptures said something about angels lacking knowledge, that they longed to look into something that they did not understand.
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spauline
Guest
I don’t know, but I’ve heard EWTN priest say that it is conjectured that the angels were at a bare minimum shown the future of the Incarnation and that Satan, in his pride, said, “I will not bow down and worship weak flesh and blood,” that is, that the angels would not serve creatures of an inferior nature.
But I’m curious to know where this verse is that you mention.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
that indicates a lack of knowledge on the angels part I think.
It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
that indicates a lack of knowledge on the angels part I think.
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spauline
Guest
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