Angels in OT vs Angels in Quran.

[Sam_777]

YHWH in the OT only needed one Angel to fulfil His prosecution on 185000 Assyrian soldiers, (Isaiah 37:36), while in Islam Allah needed 5000 angels plus 313 Muslims to fight around 1000 men of Quraish tribe, but together they were able to kill 70 men only, (Quran 3:125).

I wonder why the big difference between the two !!!

References:

1. Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas:
   “(Nay) it is sufficient to you, (but if you persevere) in war with your Prophet, (and keep from evil) and keep from contravening and disobeying Him, (and) the people of Mecca (attack you suddenly) from the direction of Mecca, (your Lord will help you) against your enemy (with five thousand angels sweeping on) 5,000 marked angels; it is also said this means: 5,000 angels wearing turbans of wool.”
   altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?..&UserProfile=0
2. Tafsir al-jalalayn:
   “Yea, it is sufficient for you. In [sūrat] al-Anfāl [it is stated] with a thousand [Q. 8:9], because at first He reinforced them with this [thousand], then it became three [thousand] then five [thousand], as God says: if you are patient, in encountering the enemy, and fear, God in not contravening [His command], and they, the idolaters, come against you instantly, your Lord will reinforce you with five thousand angels accoutred’ (read musawimmīn or musawammīn), that is to say, distinctively marked [for the battle]. Indeed, they were patient and God fulfilled His promise to them, so that the angels fought together with them riding upon piebald horses wearing yellow or white turbans, let loose down to their shoulders.”
   altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?..&UserProfile=0
3. Wikipedia.
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

YHWH in the OT only needed one Angel to fulfil His prosecution on 185000 Assyrian soldiers,

O my God . Christians loving Prince Jesus (pbuh) was so cruel during the time of OT ? He killed thousands & thousands people instead of loving & forgiving them ?

Allah needed 5000 angels plus 313 Muslims to fight around 1000 men of Quraish tribe, but together they were able to kill 70 men only,

so , what’s your objection ? Why Allah killed 70 men only and not thousands & thousands like Jesus (pbuh) did ?

 

[terrysa]

Dear Muslim Woman: There were no Christians in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is the story of the Jewish people before Jesus came, (a couple thousand years before). Christians include it in their bible because they believe that the Jewish faith was a precursor to the Christian faith - that Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come and save them (today’s Jews are still waiting for Him to come.)

I don’t think the number of Angels matters, at least we may not know the significance until the next life. All things have significance, but it is not always necessary or possible for us to know their significance. The way that God chooses to carry out His plans varies from situation to situation according to what individuals need. For example, why did Jesus ask the blind man to wash his eyes in mud before he could see? He could have just willed it to happen immediately. I think, for that person, he must have needed an outward symbol or ritual to help him believe.

From what we know of angels, God has entrusted them with different jobs to accomplish. His choice of which angels and how many probably is related to that, I think, but it may be a mystery known to Him alone - His ways are mysterious and ineffable.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

…The Old Testament is the story of the Jewish people before Jesus came, (a couple thousand years before).

Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) is God & he was always there since the beginning . But when I quote something from OT , then the usual reply is it’s before Jesus (pbuh) came. Why is that ?

If Jesus (pbuh) is the real God , then what happened during OT time , it happened because Jesus (pbuh) ordered / wanted so , right ?

 

[dzheremi]

I have a question for you, Muslim Woman:

Does God’s mercy preclude His justice, or can He be both just and merciful?

In other parts of the Bible, Assyria is called “the rod of God’s anger”, which he uses to punish Israel. So in one part of the Bible, God punishes the Assyrians, and in another part he uses the Assyrians to punish the Jews. Does that make God “cruel”, or is it that God is always just, and that justice comes to those who do wickedness regardless of who they are?

I fail to see why you are feigning indignation at the idea that God should punish anyone. It is His right and you certainly would not complain that Allah is anything other than the most wise and able and correct in all of His punishments.

Asking why Jesus did this is strange, too. Do you not understand that when we say that this is before Jesus’ time, we are talking about the INCARNATION?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

…
Assyria is called “the rod of God’s anger”, which he uses to punish Israel.

it’s interesting that God punished Israel in OT because He was just . But when we see some verses in Quran that criticised some Jews , that’s horrible & Allah is anti-semitic .

Asking why Jesus did this is strange, too. Do you not understand that when we say that this is before Jesus’ time, we are talking about the INCARNATION?

before Incarnation , Jesus (pbuh) was God ? If yes , then why can’t I say that what happened in OT was will of Jesus (pbuh) ?

 

[dzheremi]

it’s interesting that God punished Israel in OT because He was just . But when we see some verses in Quran that criticised some Jews , that’s horrible & Allah is anti-semitic

It is all about context, MW. The OT was written by jews, for jews. We do not believe that the Qur’an is from God, so it is not comparable. The measures taken by God in the OT were to correct His errant people. The measures taken by the believers in Islam in the Qur’an were to subjugate the jews and force them to submit to Islam. If you do not see the difference, I don’t know what to tell you.

before Incarnation , Jesus (pbuh) was God ? If yes , then why can’t I say that what happened in OT was will of Jesus (pbuh) ?

I thought you were asking why Christians would say that, so I told you why. You can believe and say whatever you want.

 

[Eucharisted]

So Allah is weaker than before? How funny. If only Muslims understood…

 

[Sister_Amy]

It is all about context, MW. The OT was written by jews, for jews. We do not believe that the Qur’an is from God, so it is not comparable. The measures taken by God in the OT were to correct His errant people. The measures taken by the believers in Islam in the Qur’an were to subjugate the jews and force them to submit to Islam. If you do not see the difference, I don’t know what to tell you.

Subjugate the jews? Whatever. My friend, Sam is talking about a battle of the Muslims against the Quraysh. Who were not Jewish.

Quite frankly, I think Muslim woman is right, that there is a very fair comparison.

And to answer another point, mercy does not preclude justice, because justice is mercy. When people feel compassion, they want to establish justice. Justice is the extension of mercy, you see. When a person decides to be merciful and forgive someone instead of demanding punishment or repayment, it is mercy without what people might consider to be justice. But pure justice is merciful also.

 

[Sister_Amy]

So Allah is weaker than before? How funny. If only Muslims understood…

A rather silly statement.

The original post is just as silly. Suggesting that Allah is “weak” or that he “needs” angels to fight men. One does not say such things about the Almighty.

 

[dzheremi]

Subjugate the jews? Whatever.

Quran 9:29:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

You’re right. The word is “subject” not “subjugate”. Sorry.

My friend, Sam is talking about a battle of the Muslims against the Quraysh. Who were not Jewish.

And I was talking to Muslim Woman about the difference between the treatment of the Jews in the OT (that the Jews wrote) and the Qur’an. I know that the Quraysh weren’t Jewish.

Quite frankly, I think Muslim woman is right, that there is a very fair comparison.

Okay. I disagree.

And to answer another point, mercy does not preclude justice, because justice is mercy. When people feel compassion, they want to establish justice. Justice is the extension of mercy, you see. When a person decides to be merciful and forgive someone instead of demanding punishment or repayment, it is mercy without what people might consider to be justice. But pure justice is merciful also.

Okay.

 

[Sam_777]

My point is if those were really true Angels then there is no need for such large quantity of them to perform what a single true Angel did in the OT, I personally think that the whole story is a fabrication by Muhammed to encourage his fighters to fight, or those 5000 angels are nothing but demons.

P.S., Also YHWH needed just one Angel to fulfil His prosecution in “2 Samuel 24:16” and “2 Chronicles 32:21”.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

** there is no need for such large quantity of them** to perform what a single true Angel did in the OT,

Who decides all these ? Why u think Jesus (pbuh) created more than one angel then ? It’s up to God Almighty to send one or two or many angels to obey the command of God. It’s the wish of God Almighty when He will send how many angels to where & why and for what. It’s funny to challenge God why He sent one angel in the past & many angels later.

Anyway , angels did not take part in war always . Sometimes they just came to increase the number of Muslim Army , to give them comfort & courage . Maximum in 2/3 wars , angels fought with Muslims against enemies.

Also YHWH needed just one Angel to fulfil His prosecution in “2 Samuel 24:16” and “2 Chronicles 32:21”.

okay okay , I think , we all understand. Jesus (pbuh) gave an angel huge power in the past , later changed his mind , took the power away. So , when he himself came in to the world as angel & fought with a Prophet , he lost the war

Can u tell me , how it’s possible ? If one angel can kill thousands & thousands people , then why creator of the angel could not even beat a human being in the fighting ? What’s the mystery ??

 

[neploho]

You’re right. The word is “subject” not “subjugate”. Sorry.

She is not referring to the potentially expansionist themes in the Qur’an but the accounts of Allah rebuking the Jews for straying from the true path. You are trying to change the course of her point.

Not that that simple factual distinction will stem the constant stream of inane, half witted anti Islamic polemics.

 

[neploho]

YHWH in the OT only needed one Angel to fulfil His prosecution on 185000 Assyrian soldiers, (Isaiah 37:36), while in Islam Allah needed 5000 angels plus 313 Muslims to fight around 1000 men of Quraish tribe, but together they were able to kill 70 men only, (Quran 3:125).

I wonder why the big difference between the two !!!

References:

1. Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas:
   “(Nay) it is sufficient to you, (but if you persevere) in war with your Prophet, (and keep from evil) and keep from contravening and disobeying Him, (and) the people of Mecca (attack you suddenly) from the direction of Mecca, (your Lord will help you) against your enemy (with five thousand angels sweeping on) 5,000 marked angels; it is also said this means: 5,000 angels wearing turbans of wool.”
   altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?..&UserProfile=0
2. Tafsir al-jalalayn:
   “Yea, it is sufficient for you. In [sūrat] al-Anfāl [it is stated] with a thousand [Q. 8:9], because at first He reinforced them with this [thousand], then it became three [thousand] then five [thousand], as God says: if you are patient, in encountering the enemy, and fear, God in not contravening [His command], and they, the idolaters, come against you instantly, your Lord will reinforce you with five thousand angels accoutred’ (read musawimmīn or musawammīn), that is to say, distinctively marked [for the battle]. Indeed, they were patient and God fulfilled His promise to them, so that the angels fought together with them riding upon piebald horses wearing yellow or white turbans, let loose down to their shoulders.”
   altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?..&UserProfile=0
3. Wikipedia.
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr

Based on your posts I must say I doubt that you are actually a Muslim who has converted to Christianity. I have not slept for a few days with class stuff so perhaps I’m just cranky and if so I apologize but it seems, from reading your posts, that either you never really knew your religion (or at least your sacred text) or you were never really a Muslim at all.

I don’t just mean that in some esoteric sense of “oh but you never knew “true Islam”” but simply the content of asserted propositions which make up the Islamic corpus. The Qur’an makes it very clear that Allah needs no intervening agents to accomplish a goal. He merely says “be” and it is. All that is is only because his divine will allows it. The Qur’an contains numerous accounts of Allah obliterating a wayward people or city. Surly if I, an agnostic with only a tentative knowledge of Islam, know this then you, a professed Muslim living in the heart of Islamic Puritanism, ought to know that according to the faith tradition from which you draw these evens Allah needs no men or agents to utterly destroy a hostile army. Or perhaps you were a Muslim, do know this but simply like to get a rise out of the Muslims here. Who knows.

 

[dzheremi]

She is not referring to the potentially expansionist themes in the Qur’an but the accounts of Allah rebuking the Jews for straying from the true path. You are trying to change the course of her point.

Not that that simple factual distinction will stem the constant stream of inane, half witted anti Islamic polemics.

I’m not going to dignify the last line with a response, but as to the first sentence: I am not trying to “change the course of her point”, but to clarify my own. I am not saying that Allah does not rebuke the Jews in the Qur’an for straying from the true path, and obviously if He is God then He is right to do so. That is not the problem. The problem is that Muslim Woman originally asserted indirectly that the treatment of the Jews in the Qur’an should be compared favorably or at least equally with that of the Jews in the Old Testament. The problem I see with that is that the Jews wrote the Old Testament (so obviously unless you think the Jews are being anti-semitic against themselves when describing their own punishment, she does not have a point here), while Jews did not write the Qur’an, and obviously do not believe that it is the word of God as Muslims do. So when asking, as Muslim Woman did, why it is that when God punishes the Jews in the Old Testament He is being “just” but when He does so in the Qur’an He is somehow being “anti-semitic”, my reply to that is simply that it is not the punishment of the Jews by God that is anti-semitic in the Qur’an (since, she is right, that is present in the Bible too), but the treatment of the Jews in other verses like the one I posted. She is thinking that we are upset because the Qur’an criticizes the Jews (as though Jesus Himself never did that…), but she is wrong. That is my only point.

So I guess in a way you are right: I am not honoring the original line of thought in her post, because I agree with it but I think it misses the point entirely. She does not understand that the problem with the Qur’an is not that it includes punishment.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… The Qur’an makes it very clear that Allah needs no intervening agents to accomplish a goal. He merely says “be” and it is.

thanks for the nice post

 

[Sister_Amy]

My point is if those were really true Angels then there is no need for such large quantity of them to perform what a single true Angel did in the OT, I personally think that the whole story is a fabrication by Muhammed to encourage his fighters to fight, or those 5000 angels are nothing but demons.

Can’t you make up your mind?

 

[Sister_Amy]

You’re right. The word is “subject” not “subjugate”. Sorry.

No… and that verse isn’t talking about Jews either.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Based on your posts I must say I doubt that you are actually a Muslim who has converted to Christianity. I have not slept for a few days with class stuff so perhaps I’m just cranky and if so I apologize but it seems, from reading your posts, that either you never really knew your religion (or at least your sacred text) or you were never really a Muslim at all.

I don’t just mean that in some esoteric sense of “oh but you never knew “true Islam”” but simply the content of asserted propositions which make up the Islamic corpus. The Qur’an makes it very clear that Allah needs no intervening agents to accomplish a goal. He merely says “be” and it is. All that is is only because his divine will allows it. The Qur’an contains numerous accounts of Allah obliterating a wayward people or city. Surly if I, an agnostic with only a tentative knowledge of Islam, know this then you, a professed Muslim living in the heart of Islamic Puritanism, ought to know that according to the faith tradition from which you draw these evens Allah needs no men or agents to utterly destroy a hostile army. Or perhaps you were a Muslim, do know this but simply like to get a rise out of the Muslims here. Who knows.

I had this opinion for a while, actually, that he wasn’t telling the truth. I don’t have any proof for that opinion, though. It seems though that he’s trying to get a rise out of Muslims, by getting his less-informed peers to start the fight. So he brings up these examples, making a mockery of Muslims/Islam, lets the Catholic soldiers against Islam start guffawing while the Muslims come in to correct him, and then it deteriorates to make everyone look foolish.

And it’s precisely because he doesn’t understand Islam that I think his story might actually be true. He probably attends Friday prayers (hypocritically, I might add) and hears random things in the sermon and because his beliefs are so twisted he can’t understand them in context, so he tries to find a way to mock Islam out of what he hears.