Angels in OT vs Angels in Quran.

[katy_kt]

O my God . Christians loving Prince Jesus (pbuh) was so cruel during the time of OT ? He killed thousands & thousands people instead of loving & forgiving them ?

Please could you avoid attacking and picking on something that isn’t relevant to the topic of the thread

 

[dzheremi]

No… and that verse isn’t talking about Jews either.

Okay. So what does it mean when it says “out of those who have been given the Book”? I had assumed that refers to “People of the Book”, the designation given to Jews and Christians in the Qur’an. In fact, it appears as “People of the Book” in the Yusufali translation of that verse. Are Jews not people of the book anymore?

 

[Sam_777]

As usual, some members here (Muslims and religious-less) are avoiding the main subject and start attacking the OP.:dts:

If they think I’m lying then shouldn’t the administrators of this website ban me after almost one year of posting from an IP outside the country I state!

But one day in the near future I will provide a phone number for my friends in my CAF friend list so that they can call me if they want to know whether I’m telling the truth or not, or even meeting them personally anywhere in SA.

However, my question remains, why Allah needed 5000 angels in Islam while YHWH needed only one in the OT.

 

[terrysa]

Dear Muslim Woman:

Many Christians do believe that Muslims and Jews worship the same God that Christians know and love. We believe that God is above the petty distinctions of man and cares more about the love of his children, the steadfastness of their hearts, than their particular race, or gender or creed. God is love.

About Jesus being God and existing in both the OT and NT: You are right, Jesus is God and as such has existed always, uncreated. Yet the second person of the Trinity took flesh and became man to teach men, when they were ready, about His Love for them, and His Mercy. The God-Man thus had a beginning, of sorts, in a particular time in History, when His created human form remained on earth.

About the violence of the OT: The people of the Old Testament were like children, aggressive and unruly children. In their hardness of heart they were unable to accept the full truth now revealed by God in the time of Christ. There are several examples of this in the New Testament and I will provide one here: when Jesus told His followers that God does not like divorce, they were upset and pointed out that Moses had allowed it. Jesus responded saying: “It was because you were so hard-hearted, that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning. Now I say this to you : anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.” (Matthew 19:8-9) Here we see that God, through Moses, has been lenient with his unruly children.

May God continue to bless you in abundance and protect and guide you on your life’s journey.

Terrysa

 

[famdigy]

in Islam Allah needed 5000 angels plus 313 Muslims to fight around 1000 men of Quraish tribe, but together they were able to kill 70 men only, /QUOTE]
As much of 1/3 of the unbelievers that were killed died at the hands of Imam Ali (as) alone. The purpose of the angels is to aid the muslims. Aid can take many forms, it can be that they fought besides them. It can be they prayed to God for their success, or it can be they provided them with spiritual vigor and strength. Regardless, it was a remarkable battle that a small band of 313 men, elderly and yonge, were able to defeat a well trained and armed army of 1000. On top of that a yonge youth by the name of Ali was able to slay over 20 of them, including some of the bravest and fiercest arab warriors at the time.

 

[Sam_777]

Regardless, it was a remarkable battle that a small band of 313 men, elderly and yonge, were able to defeat a well trained and armed army of 1000. On top of that a yonge youth by the name of Ali was able to slay over 20 of them, including some of the bravest and fiercest arab warriors at the time.

But the hadith by your beloved Caliph says that those angels were riding horses.

**تفسير ابن كثير
**
عن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال : كان سيما الملائكة يوم بدر الصوف الأبيض وكان سيماهم أيضا في نواصي خيولهم رواه ابن أبي حاتم
​

Anyway, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I still believe that if God wanted to perform actions on any number of people through Angels, then He could use one Angel only to do whatever He wants.

 

[neploho]

I’m not going to dignify the last line with a response, but as to the first sentence: I am not trying to “change the course of her point”, but to clarify my own. I am not saying that Allah does not rebuke the Jews in the Qur’an for straying from the true path, and obviously if He is God then He is right to do so. That is not the problem. The problem is that Muslim Woman originally asserted indirectly that the treatment of the Jews in the Qur’an should be compared favorably or at least equally with that of the Jews in the Old Testament. The problem I see with that is that the Jews wrote the Old Testament (so obviously unless you think the Jews are being anti-semitic against themselves when describing their own punishment, she does not have a point here), while Jews did not write the Qur’an, and obviously do not believe that it is the word of God as Muslims do. So when asking, as Muslim Woman did, why it is that when God punishes the Jews in the Old Testament He is being “just” but when He does so in the Qur’an He is somehow being “anti-semitic”, my reply to that is simply that it is not the punishment of the Jews by God that is anti-semitic in the Qur’an (since, she is right, that is present in the Bible too), but the treatment of the Jews in other verses like the one I posted. She is thinking that we are upset because the Qur’an criticizes the Jews (as though Jesus Himself never did that…), but she is wrong. That is my only point.

So I guess in a way you are right: I am not honoring the original line of thought in her post, because I agree with it but I think it misses the point entirely. She does not understand that the problem with the Qur’an is not that it includes punishment.

If the origins of the Old Testament lie with the Jewish people that is it is a culturally produced document and not the result of divine revelation and the Qur’an is as well then your distinction is legitimate. I’m fairly sure the Vatican would call you a heretic for the former and the latter is question begging. Or at least by its logic I could assume that Christianity is an deeply anti Semitic religion given the many rebukes Christ directs towards the Jews of the area.

 

[neploho]

As usual, some members here (Muslims and religious-less) are avoiding the main subject and start attacking the OP.:dts:

If they think I’m lying then shouldn’t the administrators of this website ban me after almost one year of posting from an IP outside the country I state!

But one day in the near future I will provide a phone number for my friends in my CAF friend list so that they can call me if they want to know whether I’m telling the truth or not, or even meeting them personally anywhere in SA.

However, my question remains, why Allah needed 5000 angels in Islam while YHWH needed only one in the OT.

I did not attack you. I pointed out that your whole line of questioning was so ill informed and divorced from the larger content of the religious universe you were operating in that it would be surprising to me if you ever actually were a Muslim. I thought religious education in Saudi Arabia would be reasonably good but perhaps I was mistaken. I don’t doubt that you live in Saudi Arabia, I just doubt you were ever a Muslim, or a well informed Muslim at least. But seeing as I have no evidence beyond that suspicion I will ever bring it up again and will not claim that anyone should believe my inclination to be correct.
Have a nice day.

 

[dzheremi]

If the origins of the Old Testament lie with the Jewish people that is it is a culturally produced document and not the result of divine revelation and the Qur’an is as well then your distinction is legitimate. I’m fairly sure the Vatican would call you a heretic for the former and the latter is question begging. Or at least by its logic I could assume that Christianity is an deeply anti Semitic religion given the many rebukes Christ directs towards the Jews of the area.

What the Vatican would think of what I have written is not really the issue here, is it? As far as I have read, the Vatican recognizes the divine authorship of God through all the books, and willingly concedes that they were physically written by men. The Bible is not some book that just fell out of the sky one day. The kind of false dichotomy you are trying to impose on my post is alien to official Vatican documents such as the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum), which contains statements such as the following:

In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

(source)

You’ll forgive me now, I hope, if I maintain the idea that the Bible was written down by certain people of certain cultures in certain places at certain times. There is nothing “heretical” about that. If we’re talking about the Old Testament, the people doing the writing would have been Jews. So, yes, the Old Testament is most definitely a Jewish “cultural document” AND the word of God.

“The Qur’an is as well”…hmmm…well, I certainly will concede that is a cultural document, but I do not think it is of divine origin. I don’t see any contradiction in holding that what is true of the Bible is not true of the Qur’an. Muslims would say the same thing about the Bible in comparison to the Qur’an, so I don’t think I’m being unfair or mean-spirited.

 

[Steven_John]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

O my God . Christians loving Prince Jesus (pbuh) was so cruel during the time of OT ? He killed thousands & thousands people instead of loving & forgiving them ?

so , what’s your objection ? Why Allah killed 70 men only and not thousands & thousands like Jesus (pbuh) did ?

AsSalum o Aliekum,
Dear sister
either you are poking trinitarians or are mis informed.

The bible contradicts what offer.

Allah removed many unbelievers and wrong doers in the days of old because it was best for us.

Jesus (pbwh) was blessed with the pure spirit and showed us Allah’s peace will among
men.

I am jumping in having not read all the posts soz if i am in anyones way

May Allah bless and guide you and yours as youes submit unto Him.

Hi Sam i trust The One True God is blessing you on your faith journey and no men are leading you astray, Blessings 2 ya bro

 

[Sam_777]

Hi Sam i trust The One True God is blessing you on your faith journey and no men are leading you astray, Blessings 2 ya bro

Hi brother Steven , long time no seen , what is your opinion about the difference in Angels power between Judaism and Islam.

 

[Steven_John]

Hi brother Steven , long time no seen , what is your opinion about the difference in Angels power between Judaism and Islam.

I dont really have one, i guess i have just left intercession to God / Allah, it is Him i pray to and Him i trust.

I need to read this whole thread but have not yet made time hope to by tomorrow.

I do have a thought that i need to pray on. From a Christian perspective when the vail was torn things really changed.

I think many dead were raised or graves were made open.

I guess if the vail was torn many things that were hidden from us would now be seen. In that light what was allowed seen in the OT time would not be the same as what would be seen in NT times.

That would make sense of the question in the post.

Please dont all beat me for offering this, as stated it is a guess if prayer brings me insight i will offer it and if youes dont like it you can beat me then.

Love ya all,
may Allah bless and guide you all.

Stay well Brother sorry i dont have more to contribute

 

[neploho]

What the Vatican would think of what I have written is not really the issue here, is it? As far as I have read, the Vatican recognizes the divine authorship of God through all the books, and willingly concedes that they were physically written by men. The Bible is not some book that just fell out of the sky one day. The kind of false dichotomy you are trying to impose on my post is alien to official Vatican documents such as the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum), which contains statements such as the following:

(source)

You’ll forgive me now, I hope, if I maintain the idea that the Bible was written down by certain people of certain cultures in certain places at certain times. There is nothing “heretical” about that. If we’re talking about the Old Testament, the people doing the writing would have been Jews. So, yes, the Old Testament is most definitely a Jewish “cultural document” AND the word of God.

“The Qur’an is as well”…hmmm…well, I certainly will concede that is a cultural document, but I do not think it is of divine origin. I don’t see any contradiction in holding that what is true of the Bible is not true of the Qur’an. Muslims would say the same thing about the Bible in comparison to the Qur’an, so I don’t think I’m being unfair or mean-spirited.

You need to reread the antecedent of my first assertion in that post. Then you will understand why these quotations have nothing to do with my point, nor are they in any way contradictory to it.

 

[dzheremi]

Or you could just come out and tell me what you mean, because I am apparently not understanding you. You wrote that if my claim is that the OT is a ‘culturally produced document’ and not of divine revelation, then the distinction that I’ve made is valid. I replied to the contrary, that it is in fact both at the same time, and provided documentation that my view is NOT heretical as you suggested, but actually in line with the thinking of the Vatican. Now you claim that what I’ve written in reply is not relevant.to whatever your point is.

Alright, sir or ma’am…you’ve stumped me. What is your point?

 

[neploho]

Or you could just come out and tell me what you mean, because I am apparently not understanding you. You wrote that if my claim is that the OT is a ‘culturally produced document’ and not of divine revelation, then the distinction that I’ve made is valid. I replied to the contrary, that it is in fact both at the same time, and provided documentation that my view is NOT heretical as you suggested, but actually in line with the thinking of the Vatican. Now you claim that what I’ve written in reply is not relevant.to whatever your point is.

Alright, sir or ma’am…you’ve stumped me. What is your point?

The crucial qualification was that the text are not the result of divine revelation and solely a cultural production of the Jewish people.

If the origins of the Old Testament lie with the Jewish people that is it is a culturally produced document and not the result of divine revelation and the Qur’an is as well then your distinction is legitimate.

It is a conditional statement. The antecedent is the proposition “the origins of the Old Testament lie with the Jewish people” and made a conjunctive qualification of that statement ‘the it is a culturally produced text and not the product of divine revelation’. You provided documentation that the conjunctive proposition that the Old Testament is both a culturally produced document and the result of divine revelation. I am well aware that this view is kosher with the church which is why I was specific to make my qualification that it was solely a cultural produced text and not a divine revelation at all. Such a view is not acceptable in the eyes of the Vatican as far as I know.

 

[dzheremi]

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. I’m not sure why we just had this conversation, since I never claimed to begin with that the OT is only a ‘culturally produced document’, but I’m glad we can put it to rest now. Peace.

 

[Steven_John]

YHWH in the OT only needed one Angel to fulfil His prosecution on 185000 Assyrian soldiers, (Isaiah 37:36

), while in Islam Allah needed 5000 angels plus 313 Muslims to fight around 1000 men of Quraish tribe, but together they were able to kill 70 men only, (Quran 3:125).

I wonder why the big difference between the two !!!

peace and blessings to you all,

I have prayed many times since my last post. I have prayed with both Christians and Muslims.

Assuming one is in right relationship with My Father and are asking what is of His will.

This is a question of faith, if you have enough faith you can move a mountain into an ocean.

If you have faith that you see one angel can bring victory over large numbers of enemy then what kind of believer would question God does such?

If you have faith that you see many angels will be sent to help in a battle with your enemy’s in small numbers what kind of believer would question God does such?

Angels are spirit beings they are nearer and further from My Father, in our understanding this is in ranks. They are many in number, to numerous for me to count.

As spirit beings the form we perceive them in varies, My Father knows your heart.

They ascend and descend as God wills, they serve us by His will. There are so many here but the veils are between us and them. Veils are what obstruct us from seeing them. We do not have to have veils as purity as it was b4 Adam (pbuh) sinned has been restored. Sin no more know my Fathers infiniteness you become aware and may see them all. At times my Father has the veil lifted to His glorify.

The answer of my mind to the two questions i asked here is either a wolf in sheep’s clothing or one who is not solid in the second commandment Jesus (pbwh) gave.

I pray this post help us to grow in love.

I will be who i will be, you have free will to choose who you see I am.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

I have prayed with both Christians and Muslims.