Angels ?more like angles

[Disillusioned]

Where is all this cut and dried hard and fast stuff on angels coming from ? Wanting to name them does stink of magic which is condemned by God.But don’t you think there’s something significant when S Paul talks about the angel from heaven preaching the other gospel ? Or when the angel in Revelation tells John The Divine not to reverence him at all.

Angels are simply the messengers of God.There is a numerical fallacy if we say that everyone has a guardian angel…the population of the earth goes on increasing whereas the non-reproductive angels must be a set fixed figure.The same angels must look after sets of people if indeed Our Lord meant this.

You must also understand that Our Lord was flesh and blood and divinity, His Holy Mother was addressed by an angel .Is it right to conclude that Gabriel was Mary’s guardian?What about the ones who strengthened and comforted the Lord in the desert and the Garden ?Did Our Lord require angel guardians ? He seems in His frustration to say that the Father could have sent whole squadrons to protect Him ?

Personally I think they are not with you all your life.As Jesus said, their task is to attempt to protect the vulnerable and then with the age of reason you would not possess free will if angels constantly dived to ensure your salvation.

Another important scripture indicates that one day we will sufficiently changed so as to judge the angels.

Our enemy is one-he makes himself look like an angel of light.
Now that’s very sobering.

 

[rfk]

You are entitled to your beliefs.

But I do want to point out that most of what you have stated is in direct contradiction with 2000 years of Church teaching.

One of the biggest illusions humans can fall under is the belief that they are able to determine right from wrong, and truth from fiction. It is such a cliche, that it is literally the first sin listed in the Bible:

From Genesis 3:4-5

4 But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!
5 No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.”

That is why Christ left us a Church, to safeguard and teach us. There is authoritative teaching on angels and demons. I suggest you may profitably spend time learning the truth.

Here is one place to start:

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p5.htm

Here is another:

Angels and Demons - Facts not Fiction by Fr. Corapi

 

[Dr.Colossus]

A couple thoughts:

Where is all this cut and dried hard and fast stuff on angels coming from ?

Certainly not from the Church. There is actually very little we know about the Angels, aside from the fact that they are pure spirit, some rebelled against God, there are levels of angels (although if I’m not mistaken the commonly listed ones are not doctrine), there are a lot of them (Christ said He could command legions upon legions of angels to protect Him), and each person has a guardian Angel (more on that in a minute). I am not aware of anything further that the Church has taught definitively on the nature of the Angels. However, there seems to be a lot of New Age hocus pocus being invented about getting in tune with your Angel and such. These practices are not sanctioned by the Church and fall under the category of superstition.

Angels are simply the messengers of God.

That’s not entirely true. Angels have further tasks of praising Him, protecting His creations, battling Satan (think Michael the Archangel), to name a few.

There is a numerical fallacy if we say that everyone has a guardian angel…the population of the earth goes on increasing whereas the non-reproductive angels must be a set fixed figure.The same angels must look after sets of people if indeed Our Lord meant this.

The Angels themselves may be non-reproductive, but God, existing in eternity, has two options around this. He may either have created all the angels for humans who will ever exist, or He may create them at the time of our birth, just as He creates our souls.

You must also understand that Our Lord was flesh and blood and divinity, His Holy Mother was addressed by an angel .Is it right to conclude that Gabriel was Mary’s guardian?

It is possible that Gabriel was Mary’s guardian angel. It is also possible he was not. Nothing in Scripture suggests that only one angel may appear to one person. At Christ’s birth, the shepherds in the fields witnessed “a multitude of the heavenly host”. The angels most certainly outnumbered the shepherds to be called a “multitude”.

What about the ones who strengthened and comforted the Lord in the desert and the Garden ?Did Our Lord require angel guardians ? He seems in His frustration to say that the Father could have sent whole squadrons to protect Him ?

Our Lord, being fully human, would have had at least one guardian angel assigned to Him. Did he “require” them? No, He was already all-powerful, but the angels are the servants of God. Does it not seem right that they would serve Him while He was on earth as well?

Personally I think they are not with you all your life.As Jesus said, their task is to attempt to protect the vulnerable and then with the age of reason you would not possess free will if angels constantly dived to ensure your salvation.

The angels do not ensure our salvation. Their protection is limited to helping in the ways God allows, sometimes through physical means, but never at the expense of our own free will. An angel would not be able to, say, physically restrain a person who was trying to stab himself (though he might be able to hide a knife).

Like I said, just some thoughts in response. Great idea for a discussion thread, BTW

 

[Disillusioned]

Thanks for telling me. But honestly to suggest that everything I have written is in direct contradiction to 2000 years of church teaching? How can it be if another member supports me.? What do some people believe here, what the Scriptures have said about angels and what can be induced from information about them or long treatises which reinforce what I was saying about S Paul addressing the Galatians (he called them fools).

If we focus our intellectual energies on the existence of these beings we are likely to come a spiritual cropper.My claim about the Devil is not made up, it’s from Scripture 2 Corinthians 11:14 and so is the fact he began his existence as God’s covering cherub.Our salvation is not bound up in meditating the presence of Guardian angels, but rather the Real Presence of Our Saviour who was not an angel.

It’s a grand deviation -the cults are full of “angels”, the priests who started an order called Opus Angelorum ended up being suppressed by the Holy Office.

That was all I was trying to react to-many thanks.

 

[system]

Disillusioned:

Where is all this cut and dried hard and fast stuff on angels coming from ? Wanting to name them does stink of magic which is condemned by God.But don’t you think there’s something significant when S Paul talks about the angel from heaven preaching the other gospel ? Or when the angel in Revelation tells John The Divine not to reverence him at all.

Angels are simply the messengers of God.There is a numerical fallacy if we say that everyone has a guardian angel…the population of the earth goes on increasing whereas the non-reproductive angels must be a set fixed figure.The same angels must look after sets of people if indeed Our Lord meant this.

You must also understand that Our Lord was flesh and blood and divinity, His Holy Mother was addressed by an angel .Is it right to conclude that Gabriel was Mary’s guardian?What about the ones who strengthened and comforted the Lord in the desert and the Garden ?Did Our Lord require angel guardians ? He seems in His frustration to say that the Father could have sent whole squadrons to protect Him ?

Personally I think they are not with you all your life.As Jesus said, their task is to attempt to protect the vulnerable and then with the age of reason you would not possess free will if angels constantly dived to ensure your salvation.

Another important scripture indicates that one day we will sufficiently changed so as to judge the angels.

Our enemy is one-he makes himself look like an angel of light.
Now that’s very sobering.

And where do you think the Angels of the lost souls go, in your argument about the number of Angels ? back to Heaven :yup: