Angels vs. Humans

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeteZaHut
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

PeteZaHut

Guest
Why did humans get a chance for redemption, but the angels who fell didn’t?
 
This is a question that I’ve asked myself. I don’t know the answer except that angels can see God and know the truth and we can’t and must have faith.

I am interested to see what others say.
 
I think it’s because angels had much greater knowledge about God and His goodness so they only got one chance. Humans have limited ability to understand God and must rely of the grace of faith so God gives us virtually unlimited chances for forgiveness.
 
I have heard priests speak on the matter which seems to confirm what Momor has said.

to “re-phrase” angels have/had “full and perfect knowledge” of how their sin would separate themselves from communion with God whereas humans, as evidenced in the story of Genesis were ignorant of how their sin would separate their relation to God hence the only reason that Christ can save us.
 
gparis said:
I have heard priests speak on the matter which seems to confirm what Momor has said.

to “re-phrase” angels have/had “full and perfect knowledge” of how their sin would separate themselves from communion with God whereas humans, as evidenced in the story of Genesis were ignorant of how their sin would separate their relation to God hence the only reason that Christ can save us.
Click to expand...
This is correct. Existing outside of time, the angels knew the full ramifications of their actions, and yet they still chose to separate themselves from God. Hence, they are incapable of changing their minds.
 
If one possesses perfect knowledge and chooses to reject the good of God…what more can God do to change their mind?🤷
 
That’s hard to understand. If you have full knowledge of the goodness of God and of the consequences of choosing to disobey God, also having no concupiscence, how could that decision ever happen?

I even think the same thing with humans sometimes. If there was no concupiscence at first, then how did the act of disobedience happen?
 
PeteZaHut said:
That’s hard to understand. If you have full knowledge of the goodness of God and of the consequences of choosing to disobey God, also having no concupiscence, how could that decision ever happen?

I even think the same thing with humans sometimes. If there was no concupiscence at first, then how did the act of disobedience happen?
Click to expand...
Concupiscence does not MAKE you sin. It only makes sin more tempting. As long as we have free will, we have the choice to succumb to sin.
 
PeteZaHut said:
Why did humans get a chance for redemption, but the angels who fell didn’t?
Click to expand...
From Frank Sheed’s book, Theology for Beginners:
“Men are given another chance, and another, and another. Not so angels. We have no experience, and never shall have it, of being pure spirits, spirits not meant for union with a body as our souls are; but philosophers who have gone deep into the concept see reasons why an angel’s decision can only be final, and a second chance therefore pointless.”
 
The Fallen Angels committed the sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. They rejected God for who he was at his very core, the Loving Father. The fact is, they have no desire to be with God. They fully hate the Creator, and so abhor the Created. Thus, God is simply honoring their desires. He does not force himself on them. He merely banishes them from his presence as they wish to be removed from his.

It is the same way he interacts with us, humans. He does not force himself on us. Whenever we sin against him, and reject his presence from our lives, he honors our wishes until we repent or die.

God is merely respecting our free will, not hating us.

Archistrage
 
I’m reminded of the line in, what is it, Dante’s Inferno? The Devil says, “It’s better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven”.
 
NotWorthy said:
I’m reminded of the line in, what is it, Dante’s Inferno? The Devil says, “It’s better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven”.
Click to expand...
Lucifer does not reign in hell. He is just as much bound to the boiling rocks and flames as all other souls are who have transgressed against the Lord.

Archistrage
 
archistrage said:
Lucifer does not reign in hell. He is just as much bound to the boiling rocks and flames as all other souls are who have transgressed against the Lord.

Archistrage
Click to expand...
The primary consolation for a fallen angel is seeing another person join their state of destruction.
Ultimately, the only consolation in hell, is measured by the number of other’s that are joined to one’s* personal state of* destruction. The person who’s likeness is in all would be the one who led all to destruction. He is their king.
 
archistrage said:
Lucifer does not reign in hell. He is just as much bound to the boiling rocks and flames as all other souls are who have transgressed against the Lord.

Archistrage
Click to expand...
I know that. You know that. But Lucifer still would rather feel that he’s the big cheese, instead of serving another.

This, however, is only my opinion.
 
NotWorthy said:
I know that. You know that. But Lucifer still would rather feel that he’s the big cheese, instead of serving another.

This, however, is only my opinion.
Click to expand...
That reminds me of a popular song in the media…can’t remember the arists…it’s defining refrain or perhaps it’s title even is ‘king of nothing’. I think that’s true about the evil one.
 
NotWorthy said:
I’m reminded of the line in, what is it, Dante’s Inferno? The Devil says, “It’s better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven”.
Click to expand...
No. John Milton “Paradise Lost”. 1st Book.
Code: 
                                   "...Here at least
We shall be free; th’ Almighty hath not built

Here for his envy, will not drive us hence

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce

To reign is worth ambition though in Hell

Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav’n." -(258-263)

It was Milton’s thought that the angels could indeed repent but their vanity would not allow it and is reflected in a soliloquy by Satan. Also if one did indeed have perfect knowledge then if you rebelled you would know what you were rebelling against and making a horribly grave choice. Milton did not think they had perfect knowledge(if they did then they should have known there would be no way to win) as in the aftermath of the battle Satan and the other angels were confounded how the Son of God smote them and cast them out of heaven, as they were fighting to a stalemate with the Angels who were not deceived(see book six).

Its not quite how I have been taught, being born on Feast day, but its still an awesome piece of Epic Poetry considering the work that has been put out in modern times.
 
KShaft said:
No. John Milton “Paradise Lost”. 1st Book.
Code: 
                                   "...Here at least
We shall be free; th’ Almighty hath not built

Here for his envy, will not drive us hence

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce

To reign is worth ambition though in Hell

Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav’n." -(258-263)

It was Milton’s thought that the angels could indeed repent but their vanity would not allow it and is reflected in a soliloquy by Satan. Also if one did indeed have perfect knowledge then if you rebelled you would know what you were rebelling against and making a horribly grave choice. Milton did not think they had perfect knowledge(if they did then they should have known there would be no way to win) as in the aftermath of the battle Satan and the other angels were confounded how the Son of God smote them and cast them out of heaven, as they were fighting to a stalemate with the Angels who were not deceived(see book six).

Its not quite how I have been taught, being born on Feast day, but its still an awesome piece of Epic Poetry considering the work that has been put out in modern times.
Click to expand...
I never said he was omniscient. I said that he had a knowledge and understanding far beyond our own. That he was perfectly aware of what he was doing, and that he chose to do it anyway.

And again, no, I’ve never heard any logically sound reasoning to suggest that he does reign in Hell. He has authority and power here on Earth. This was granted to him by God to test the resolve of man. Revelation speaks of Lucifer being bound and thrown into the fires of hell. Yes, his reign is going quite well down there.

Lucifer completely despises all of Creation as well as the Creator. He despises everything that exists, including himself. However being unable to be extinguished, he causes others to suffer and to die, seeking to quench his hatred. Yet the more lives he destroys and ruins, the more he comes know and understand that in the end, he will lose. He is desperate, like a wild animal who is cornered. He continuously claws, trying to gain his footing, and gain the power that had him cast from Heaven.

The only area that exists apart from Creation and God is Tartarus, the void. And frankly I’m not sure which is worse, Tartarus or Hell.

Archistrage
 
The late Bishop Fulton Sheen once said ‘When an angel makes up his mind there no turning back.’ When God created man and the Angels he had respect, And willful desire for them to share in freedom, EVEN IF THAT FREEDOM WAS ABUSED IN ANYWAY

Think about it, the Angels are the most powerful beings of creation, they govern the universe, and guard the souls of man. But when God created them, even thy had to undergo the test. Now what this test was we dont really know. When God created the angels He bestowed on them great wisdom, power, and holiness. But even THEY needed to be tested to see if they were worthy of eternal Happiness.

(a) God bestowed upon the angels supernatural grace by which they could gain eternal happiness.

(b) The angels were given the opportunity to merit the reward of heaven by remaining faithful to God.

Now the rest is obvious: Satan Through pride and jealousy, tempted a third of the legions of heaven yada yada yada. St. Michael and the other good angels fought Satan and cast them out of Paradise etc, etc. Now humans are created just below the angels, but higher than animals. A flesh we have, and an immortal soul we posses. W also have an intellect, and free will like the angels. God with full knowledge understands our weakness EVEN IF HE DIDNT COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN he was fully aware of our nature. In the space of time we are given countless chances to make amends and to remain faithful to God Almighty. But after death when we break through time and enter eternity our decisions will make God Judge, Jury, AND executioner of our final, and eternal goal.

But remember God can only give us what we ask for. He doesnt send us to Hell and Damnation, WE DO IT OURSELVES
 
archistrage said:
I never said he was omniscient. I said that he had a knowledge and understanding far beyond our own. That he was perfectly aware of what he was doing, and that he chose to do it anyway.

And again, no, I’ve never heard any logically sound reasoning to suggest that he does reign in Hell. He has authority and power here on Earth. This was granted to him by God to test the resolve of man. Revelation speaks of Lucifer being bound and thrown into the fires of hell. Yes, his reign is going quite well down there.

Lucifer completely despises all of Creation as well as the Creator. He despises everything that exists, including himself. However being unable to be extinguished, he causes others to suffer and to die, seeking to quench his hatred. Yet the more lives he destroys and ruins, the more he comes know and understand that in the end, he will lose. He is desperate, like a wild animal who is cornered. He continuously claws, trying to gain his footing, and gain the power that had him cast from Heaven.

The only area that exists apart from Creation and God is Tartarus, the void. And frankly I’m not sure which is worse, Tartarus or Hell.

Archistrage
Click to expand...
A ruler is an instrument that measures. To rule is to set a standard. When it comes to evil there is one who is this very thing. It doesn’t mean anything more than there was one person in whom evil originated, in him evil finds oneness and that makes him the measure of evil wherever it is found.
 
Benadam said:
A ruler is an instrument that measures. To rule is to set a standard. When it comes to evil there is one who is this very thing. It doesn’t mean anything more than there was one person in whom evil originated, in him evil finds oneness and that makes him the measure of evil wherever it is found.
Click to expand...
You speak of good and evil as if they were two different things, but they are not. That which is corrupt is that which lacks a certain amount of good. He is who is evil is he who continually tries to corrupt anything and everything.

Satan himself is not pure evil, because of one unchangeable fact: he exists. God, Yahweh, the great I Am is the only one who can bestow the nature of ‘being’ onto an entity. As long as Satan exists, he cannot be pure evil. He knows this, and he despises himself for this. The fact that he can never be extinguished.

Good and Evil are not Yin and Yang, two separate forces. God is all that exists. He is goodness itself. To reject goodness from your life is to reject God. You can keep rejecting and rejecting him, but you must face one fact in the end. Your existence is because of God. Your ‘being’, your soul is eternal as it was made so by God. As long as you exist, that good remains, and can never be destroyed.

Archistrage
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top