'Angels'

[Light_Seeker]

You don’t even take the time to read and think about what I said.

Sure I did. You said the exact same thing twice in two different posts. 2 sentences each. Not much meat there to read & digest, is it? You gave nothing to think about, only that you have the opinion we have not been visited by aliens and its your opinion it is not in scripture.

I don’t really disagree with you about the scripture part. But I’m aware others do, with personal interpretations of key passages. Several books out on that, in fact.

But since you are also of the opinion we have not been visited by aliens, I can only assume you believe life exists nowhere but our planet. Or if life does exist elsewhere, it can never be more advanced than ours. Or of all the sightings that can not be attributed to natural or man-made occurrences, that you must have the answer.

Can you enlighten me?

 

[nablaise]

Yes, the word means “messenger” and denotes an office - a title, rather than speaking of their nature. But, it is clear from Scripture that they are bodiless beings who are referred to as “ministering spirits” and who are meant to help human beings (Hebrews). No human is an angel in a Biblical sense. Angels have a spiritual body that is different from ours.

Which Biblical descriptions do you have in mind?

I’ve never heard of an alien who was referred to as a bodiless creature, like the angels (who are definitely bodiless). Aliens have always been described as having “bodies”. So, I don’t see how they could be confused.

If He has angels to carry out his duties (which the Bible clearly teaches), then why would God need to use aliens to give us messages? If He did, then they have certainly not obeyed. There are no records of aliens giving anyone a message. They just simply fly in, fly out and that’s it.

God bless you too.

Hi,

Well, yes, I know what the Church teaches and I believe it all. The spiritual intelligence we call them Angels, But the word mean messangers as you know, and it has been used time in the Bible to mean other persons who are not these pure spirits. For example the angels of the seven Churches in Revelation where it is claimed that these meant the bishops of these churches.

Yes, God can send his message using different persons rather than purely spiritual beings (Angels). He used prophets, priests, kings, etc. He even used a dunkey to transmit a message to a prophet if I remember correctly.

I must say that what I meant by ‘angels’ is not about nature but about office. And since this angelic office any person can exercise it when God want it, my musing is about whether some aliens may have used it in the past just as holy prophets, priest, bishop, and even pope can exercise it when they are being God’s messangers…

About some links: Check out this page.

God bless

 

[thistle]

Sure I did. You said the exact same thing twice in two different posts. 2 sentences each. Not much meat there to read & digest, is it? You gave nothing to think about, only that you have the opinion we have not been visited by aliens and its your opinion it is not in scripture.

I don’t really disagree with you about the scripture part. But I’m aware others do, with personal interpretations of key passages. Several books out on that, in fact.

But since you are also of the opinion we have not been visited by aliens, I can only assume you believe life exists nowhere but our planet. Or if life does exist elsewhere, it can never be more advanced than ours. Or of all the sightings that can not be attributed to natural or man-made occurrences, that you must have the answer.

Can you enlighten me?

That’s a pretty stupid conclusion. You obviously do not put much thought into what someone is trying to say.

I believe there may be life elsewhere in the universe and it may or may not be more advanced than ours.
I firmly believe that there have been no alien visits to our planet and no alien abductions.
People who think aliens have visited us do so for one or more of the following:

Dreaming, imagination, alcohol, drugs (legal or illegal), mental problems, wanting 15 minutes of fame, or just downright lying.

 

[Eucharisted]

The word ‘angels’ simply mean messangers. So they can be the spiritual persons we usually call angels, or humans. But could also be aliens beings?

Angels are spirits who minister to God and help man in his duties to God. If they had bodies, they would be human beings, but since they are pure spirit, they are not human beings but are just what the title “Angel” says they are: spiritual messengers of God, serving the Lord in Heaven and (occassionally) and giving God’s messages to men (it is actually God speaking through the spirit).

Some biblical descriptions seem to describe alien ships/space crafts and different type of alien accounter. I mean what we call today ‘alien accounter’ could have been seen to ancient people as messangers of God.

You’re making an assumption, that the Word is man-made. This is not true. God is the Author of Scripture, and He, who has revealed angels to man in His Word, cannot error, since He is the Truth itself. He has revealed angels as His spiritual messengers, so this is true; He has never revealed the angels are aliens, and since Public Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, there is no new revelations, so God will never reveal to us that what He meant by angel, He meant alien - furthermore, since aliens are considered corporal beings (because they live in a corporal reality, which is the Universe), they cannot be spiritual, and hence, for God to say angels are aliens, He would be contradicting Himself.

Could it be possible that we are not alone in the universe, and since the beginning all God’s creature actually interracted with each other often in helpful ways? Like those whom we call aliens today coming often on Earth to help out in some ways, and people saw them as angels/messangers of God?

I don’t believe in aliens. Not until I see some scientific evidence for their existence - which, by the way, NASA is currently trying to find. But aliens aren’t angels, because if they were, we wouldn’t be able to find scientific evidence, since an angel (spirit) is not bound by space or time. Nevertheless, if aliens don’t exist, we won’t find them. So the whole matter of aliens, I leave up to science.

I am thinking that it is quite possible that God can send aliens as messanger for something. If he made them and they are also good, then they must be serving him too in some ways. Some biblical language like chariots and weels in air/clouds in some visions just seem to indicate spaceships.

You’re taking ancient symbols and giving them modern interpretations - that’s a fallacy, so your argument on angels on the whole is invalid. If you really want to know what ancient symbols mean, go to the Ask An Apologist forum and submit a question. Or you can use the Search function to find the answer you’re looking for in the AAA forum. Or you can go to a Bible study class. There are many options available for you.

God bless!

 

[Eucharisted]

No spirit has ever assumed human nature, a human body, or humanity. The only spiritual Being who has assumed humanity is God. To assume human nature means to become incarnate; only the Word, which is God, has become incarnate, as we all know. Spirits (angels, demons, saints) can appear as human beings, but, just as the archangel Raphael eating food was just a vision (Tobit 12:19), so too the appearance of a human body is but a vision. However, there is a distinction between vision and illusion: a vision is when you are able to see something spiritual with your eye, which you are not actually able to see at all (for example, an angel appearing with a body), while an illusion is when you think you see something spiritual but in reality is a trick by the spirit (for example, a demon appearing as Jesus).

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Well, actually my dinner. Thanks.

Nowhere did I ever say angels are not spiritual beings. I do know what the catechism says, thanks for the link though. And I’m in full agreement, they are spiritual entities. And it is true that in most scriptural accounts of angels, they are incorporeal, or present themselves in dreams. But not always.

Well, they can’t have both physical bodies and spiritual bodies. You have to choose one or the other, Light Seeker. If they are spiritual entities then they can’t be physical entities. It’s either/or, not both.

What I objected to, and gave you three different scriptural references to, were your posts that “angels (who are definitely bodiless)” and “They can’t pass for angels if the ones people claim to have seen have fleshly bodies”. Posts #9 and #10.

And I said they were bodiless in the context of speaking about human bodies (which you ignored). I then reiterated in several cases that I was referring to physical, human bodies. And I still don’t see the reason for the objection to the fact that angels cannot have physical bodies. Humans have human bodies. Angels have spiritual bodies. An angel can never be a human and a human can never be an angel.

In Tobit, Raphael appeared and was seen by everyone in this book as a human. No questions. He was even asked what (human) family he descended from. He appeared in the flesh to all. Was it actual skin & bone? Perhaps not, but Tobit didn’t have a MRA around to find out, nor did he have any reason to assume he was nothing more than a human being. And nobody else in this book had any reason to assume he was not human. Therefore, he had a body, and it was a fleshy body by all outward appearances.

You still assert this after reading the Catechism and Aquinas?

So, your assertion goes like this: the people saw his form and he appeared like a human to them and therefore it’s a fact that he was a human? Okay, I can’t follow this rabbit trail.

I also suggested Gabriel appearing to Zecharia & Mary. I chose this scripture because neither Zech nor Mary was in a dream state, as far as we know from what scripture reads. Nor was the angel described in any way that was not in human shape, or a wind in the trees, or a bodiless voice. Mary wasn’t even troubled an angel appeared, she was troubled what he told her! I agree with you, we don’t know if they appeared as non-corporeal entities, scripture doesn’t say. Same with Michael. But since Raphael appeared as a human, how can we eliminate these angels appearing as human?

My goodness. Where do I begin? You know what, I can’t do this. Father Corapi and the Catechism are clear. You just refuse to listen, but stick to your own interpretations of what you think happened. So be it.

Yes it was a sucker punch I threw about Jesus having a fleshy body. Like you said, you knew it was coming, & I couldn’t help myself. And thats why I put the big smiley.
God Bless.

I’m glad you couldn’t help yourself. Now grow up. I was having a serious conversation. I don’t think you were, though.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Hi,

Well, yes, I know what the Church teaches and I believe it all. The spiritual intelligence we call them Angels, But the word mean messangers as you know, and it has been used time in the Bible to mean other persons who are not these pure spirits. For example the angels of the seven Churches in Revelation where it is claimed that these meant the bishops of these churches.

The apocalypse of John is tricky. It is apocalyptic in form and some passages cannot be taken literally, considering the style of writing. We’re not sure that the angels of the seven churches are bishops. I don’t know of any passages that denote angels as human. It is clear from the book of Hebrews that “angels are ministering spirits”. That’s a qualifying statement. They are spirits by nature and it makes no difference that the word “angel” is a title. Regardless, all angels [messengers] are spirit beings, unless otherwise referred to as prophets, priests and kings.

Yes, God can send his message using different persons rather than purely spiritual beings (Angels). He used prophets, priests, kings, etc. He even used a dunkey to transmit a message to a prophet if I remember correctly.

Yes, and these messengers are clarified as prophets, priests and kings, not angels. Those people were humans and thus cannot be “angels” as I described above.

I must say that what I meant by ‘angels’ is not about nature but about office. And since this angelic office any person can exercise it when God want it, my musing is about whether some aliens may have used it in the past just as holy prophets, priest, bishop, and even pope can exercise it when they are being God’s messangers…

I understand, but used in the Biblical sense, regardless of the meaning of the word, angels are always referred to as spiritual beings and the Catechism validates that.

About some links: Check out this page.

God bless

I looked at the site and it looks very interesting. I’ll look at it in depth later. This is from the first page:

As purely spiritual beings, angels can project themselves at any place they want to reach and, in rare instances, when they want to reveal themselves, take a visible form without any difficulty. The same is certain for the defunct. When the Holy Virgin wants to reveal Herself to Mankind (as it happened in rare, well-documented cases) she chose forms in which She can express Her love and care as a mother and Her motherly compassion with us. We don’t even have to waste a thought on the devil and his demons, who still kept their angelic nature, being fallen angels and therefore also purely spiritual beings, since they are limited in their activity by God and therefore not able to bring all their hatred to us.

Angels can take visible forms and I agree with that. That doesn’t mean they have human physical bodies by nature. They simply don’t. If they did, they would not be able to project themselves anywhere they want. That’s my point.

God bless.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Hi,
I must say that what I meant by ‘angels’ is not about nature but about office. And since this angelic office any person can exercise it when God want it, my musing is about whether some aliens may have used it in the past just as holy prophets, priest, bishop, and even pope can exercise it when they are being God’s messangers…

About some links: Check out this page.

God bless

I missed the piece where you mentioned that God could use aliens if he wanted to as angels (if I understand you correctly). The only problem I have with that is the stories that we are told of alien abductions and such.

Those stories aren’t very good. People speak of experiments being done on them that aren’t very nice. Also, people speak of being raped by aliens. So, if we are to believe that aliens can be used as “angels” then we have to put those experiences into the equation.

Could that mean that there are bad aliens and good aliens? I don’t know. But, I’ve never heard an alien reporting that was a positive experience.

I think we’re using a lot of conjecture when speaking of this. Regardless of what some holy men have said about their belief in angels, none of them can verify their theological beliefs and neither has the Church verified them.

 

[nablaise]

I think anyone who do abductions is doing evil. Not just aliens, even humans. But there are good humans and bad.

The reason we may never heard of an alien reporting which was a positive experience is probably because good ones probably have their own good protocols which would not bring them here. Or they came disguised like Raphael for some good reasons. Remember if your right hand do a good action, don’t let your left hand know about it…

There is one Lord in the universe the Lord Jesus Christ. If they really showed up (good ones) they probably didn’t judge good to tell us something we wouldn’t handle appropriately…they probaby told us what we could handle.

God bless