Anger?

[Michael19682]

Mt 23:34-35
Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Most new age ideas would consider anger an enemy. Yet Jesus is pure grace, without sin. Anyone care to explain?

 

[Loving_disciple]

What Jesus is saying here is not out of anger. He is simply telling the people what they have done. When anger is used in a way that destoried people it is a sin. Being anger an expressing that anger in a civil way is not evil

 

[CruceSignati]

Actually, anger is not the evil that we think it to be. It can be used justly. In fact the Bible says that we can be angry sometimes.

“Be angry, yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.” ~Ephesians 5:26-27

 

[JRKH]

I guess I am not clear on what you are asking here.

I see no anger in this. It is a statement of justice - cause and effect - action and consequences.

And by the way - I am Catholic and I see anger as an enemy too. Jesus speaks against Anger in the Sermon on the Mount. See Mt 5:21-22 and vs 38-39 and again vs 43-48

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

Actually, anger is not the evil that we think it to be. It can be used justly. In fact the Bible says that we can be angry sometimes.

“Be angry, yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.” ~Ephesians 5:26-27

Be careful here. This passage does not say that it is good to get angry or that anger is a good thing. The passage does not command us to be angry.

The passage recognizes the reality that we will get angry but instructs us to remedy the situation quickly rather than letting it fester, seeking revenge, etc. It is an admonition to seek peace whenever we do happen to get angry, not a license to get angry whenever we want.

Ephesus was a center of magic arts, fortune telling, magic scrolls that supposedly could predict and change the future. It was a center of black magic and demonic spirits. Ephesians is where Paul instructs Christians to “Put on the armor of Christ”, including faith, righteousness and the “Gospel of Peace”. These are offensive and defensive weapons used to “quench the flaming arrows of the evil one”.

Peace is a weapon against the devil. The evil one hates peace.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

Actually, anger is not the evil that we think it to be. It can be used justly. In fact the Bible says that we can be angry sometimes.

“Be angry, yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.” ~Ephesians 5:26-27

Correction - Eph - 4:26-27…

If I may - I think that this is something of a misinterpretation. When this is placed along side of what Jesus says in Mt 5 I think that it is a mistake to say that anger can be used justly.
What Paul is actually saying is that if one becomes angry one should not hold on to that emotional response. Instead one should get past it as quickly as possible.
Compare Paul’s teaching of "do not let the sun go down, with Jesus teaching of "leave your gift at the altar, go and be reconciled Mt 5:21-24.

We speak often here about how we cannot always help how we “feel” - what our reaction will be to a given situation or circumstance. Thus the initial thought or reaction to something, taken without sufficient thought, might not be immediately sinful. But once we have time to realize and recognize the thought / attitude /action for what it is…then we DO assume culpability.
Paul, recognized in this view then coincides perfectly with Jesus teaching. Both are saying that anger is not a good thing…that we need to get past any feelings and thoughts of anger as quickly as possible and (where possible) make amends.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

Thank you for the answers. I happily agree with most all points raised.

 

[shoe]

Mt 23:34-35
Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Most new age ideas would consider anger an enemy. Yet Jesus is pure grace, without sin. Anyone care to explain?

Jesus taught the world to love its enemies, and He even forgave those who nailed Him to the Cross. Jesus spoke words of warnings out of love, not out of spite or evil intent. Often young people will think that their parents are their worst enemies when their parents won’t permit them to keep company with immoral influences, such as drug pushers, thieves, and dishonest people. And so if some of the people who hold New Age ideas cannot see that warning their loved ones about impending danger or evil is truly the loving and right thing to do (even though to the loved one being warned it may sound like nothing but hot air coming from a couple of angry and old cantankerous curmudgeons), then they need to check to see if they’re following a broken moral compass.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Most new age ideas would consider anger an enemy. Yet Jesus is pure grace, without sin. Anyone care to explain?

While people have been motivated to do regrettable things in Anger it’s not always that way. Anger can also motivate one to make social improvements or address the source of Anger through a lot of positive ways.

Any emotion can motivate some one to do something positive or negative. I don’t think it’s the Anger itself that may be the problem at times, but how people respond to it. For some one that is motivated to respond with hate, injuries, and destruction from anger the may be a problem. But that problem is their response, not the feeling itself.

 

[Michael19682]

ThinkingSapien:

Anger can also motivate one to make social improvements or address the source of Anger through a lot of positive ways.

In my experience, the anger itself must subside, or be trace, so that a person can either respond simultaneously with it, or after it subsides. Any angry response that results in something good is by the grace of God only and is usually rare.

I don’t think it’s the Anger itself that may be the problem at times, but how people respond to it.

The feeling is the problem also. Just because we don’t always see the root, doesn’t meant the root doesn’t exist, exhausting the soil’s life giving nutrients, so to speak. Also, anger is in my experience a feeling of dissatisfaction with Divine Providence. (Even if when I mull things over I find it was an obstacle of the devil’s influence, anger would then indicate a lack of faith and trust that God will make it ok.).

 

[Michael19682]

Jesus taught the world to love its enemies, and He even forgave those who nailed Him to the Cross. Jesus spoke words of warnings out of love, not out of spite or evil intent. Often young people will think that their parents are their worst enemies when their parents won’t permit them to keep company with immoral influences, such as drug pushers, thieves, and dishonest people. And so if some of the people who hold New Age ideas cannot see that warning their loved ones about impending danger or evil is truly the loving and right thing to do (even though to the loved one being warned it may sound like nothing but hot air coming from a couple of angry and old cantankerous curmudgeons), then they need to check to see if they’re following a broken moral compass.

I am not sure that anger is a personal test from our personal savior. If that were so, we would have the tendency to create in imitation of God our own anger so that we could practice our forgiveness by self generated means. Jesus was clear, I think, when he admonished the devil with the words of scripture: “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.” I also think that that YOU means the SELF in this case am not a counselor.

 

[JRKH]

While people have been motivated to do regrettable things in Anger it’s not always that way. Anger can also motivate one to make social improvements or address the source of Anger through a lot of positive ways.

I agree with Michael’s response to this… Anger, or perhaps more specifically,indignation can be a powerful motivator but the anger must subside in order for anything good to come. In short the impulse to act that might have been originally been brought on by anger, needs to be channeled away from anger if a positive result is desired.
In fact I think you address this very idea below…

Any emotion can motivate some one to do something positive or negative. I don’t think it’s the Anger itself that may be the problem at times, but how people respond to it. For some one that is motivated to respond with hate, injuries, and destruction from anger the may be a problem. But that problem is their response, not the feeling itself.
If I act in Anger - the response will very likely be anger in return…this is a very negative thing. If I get past the anger and act in a more measured, loving, firm, rational way the a positive outcome is much more likely.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

I’m not certain of this reply, but thanks to the discussion and James’ reply I thought of something else perhaps worthy of adding to the discussion:
There is a quote:
“Fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom” that appears is various contexts. In Proverbs its context is:

Proverbs 9:10-12

10The beginning of wisdom is fear of the LORD,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding
11For by me your days will be multiplied
and the years of your life increased.
12If you are wise, wisdom is to your advantage;
if you are arrogant, you alone shall bear it.

Perhaps this discussion can proceed from there with the understanding that if anger motivates at all, it is really fear of its destructive effects that is doing the motivating?
That is why I wanted to know if God any longer uses (his own potential for) anger, or if with Christ he has forsaken those actions as make us feel he is angry. If the latter, what then now is understanding?

 

[Michael19682]

Actually, anger is not the evil that we think it to be. It can be used justly. In fact the Bible says that we can be angry sometimes.

“Be angry, yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity.” ~Ephesians 5:26-27

It sounds like what the quote implies is that we shouldn’t reject any part of ourselves that arises emotionally but forgive ourselves before we go to bed that day?

 

[Michael19682]

Also with regard to the sun going down on anger…if you work with the figures, the sun goes down on the horizon, which is very wide and expansive. So if the sun goes down on it, there is implied a kind of intensity on the anger that would not be present at midday. If the sun, which is light, means the Lord, then maybe this means that the angry mindset and Lord’s mentality as donned by the person should be kept at a distance and not be allowed to touch; as in the Proverb’s admonishment of bearing arrogance alone.

 

[JRKH]

It sounds like what the quote implies is that we shouldn’t reject any part of ourselves that arises emotionally but forgive ourselves before we go to bed that day?

We do not forgive ourselves…It is God who forgives.
The quote implies that there are things…reactions…that we cannot help in certain situations. But we must not hold onto such things. We must get past them. Again I suggest comparing the quote from Paul with Jesus teaching of "leave your gift at the altar, go and be reconciled Mt 5:21-24.

Also with regard to the sun going down on anger…if you work with the figures, the sun goes down on the horizon, which is very wide and expansive. So if the sun goes down on it, there is implied a kind of intensity on the anger that would not be present at midday. If the sun, which is light, means the Lord, then maybe this means that the angry mindset and Lord’s mentality as donned by the person should be kept at a distance and not be allowed to touch; as in the Proverb’s admonishment of bearing arrogance alone.

Interesting linkage…but personally I don’t see the need for such a reading. The meaning of both Paul and Proverbs is readily apparent.
Anger is not good…In needs to be set aside, that is overcome.
Wisdom is also good but arrogance is not.

I’m not certain of this reply, but thanks to the discussion and James’ reply I thought of something else perhaps worthy of adding to the discussion:
There is a quote:
“Fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom” that appears is various contexts. In Proverbs its context is:

Proverbs 9:10-12

10The beginning of wisdom is fear of the LORD,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding
11For by me your days will be multiplied
and the years of your life increased.
12If you are wise, wisdom is to your advantage;
if you are arrogant, you alone shall bear it.

**Perhaps this discussion can proceed from there with the understanding that if anger motivates at all, it is really fear of its destructive effects that is doing the motivating? **
That is why I wanted to know if God any longer uses (his own potential for) anger, or if with Christ he has forsaken those actions as make us feel he is angry. If the latter, what then now is understanding?

With regards the bolded. Are you suggesting that “fear of (destructive) anger” might motivate one to channel their effort into more constructive ways? If so I might agree.

As to God’s “Anger”…I think that it is tricky to assign such human emotions to God. Certainly God is described as angry or vengeful or whatever - especially in the OT, but such descriptions are what was necessary at the time in order for those people to understand.
We are told in the NT that God IS Agape Love - such Love allows no room for anger.
Sorrow - yes…Indignation - yes…anger - no…vengeance - no.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

.

Again I suggest comparing the quote from Paul with Jesus teaching of "leave your gift at the altar, go and be reconciled Mt 5:21-24.

Yes, very true. A lot like a prelude to the new commandment of Love thy neighbor as thyself. Puts our reconciliation with God in dependency with our reconciliation with our brother.

With regards the bolded. Are you suggesting that “fear of (destructive) anger” might motivate one to channel their effort into more constructive ways? If so I might agree.

Yes. Their effort, yes. In other words, their love. Also, people will eventually learn a lesson like “talking with this guy makes me angry,” and avoid that person and/or the evil of anger that inevitably arises from talking with him…as Jesus said “Sufficient for a day is its own evil.” Why compound the situation with doing something you know will anger you? This is love of self…assisting God (who leads) with your own deliverance from evil…is it not?

As to God’s “Anger”…I think that it is tricky to assign such human emotions to God. Certainly God is described as angry or vengeful or whatever - especially in the OT, but such descriptions are what was necessary at the time in order for those people to understand.

I can agree; but it still seems to me that Jesus got mighty angry in the temple when he saw the vendors and money changers. If he was fully human, he must have been at least annoyed at times.

Just some thoughts.

Naturally

 

[JRKH]

Yes, very true. A lot like a prelude to the new commandment of Love thy neighbor as thyself. Puts our reconciliation with God in dependency with our reconciliation with our brother.

Yes. This is also clearly stated in the Lord’s Prayer, forgive us as we forgive…

Yes. Their effort, yes. In other words, their love. Also, people will eventually learn a lesson like “talking with this guy makes me angry,” and avoid that person and/or the evil of anger that inevitably arises from talking with him…as Jesus said “Sufficient for a day is its own evil.” Why compound the situation with doing something you know will anger you? This is love of self…assisting God (who leads) with your own deliverance from evil…is it not?

Yes - I think this is true. Though I would suggest that at some point we ask ourselves, Why we get angry / upset when talking with this person. Such questioning can help one understand ones self better and grow in holiness.

I can agree; but it still seems to me that Jesus got mighty angry in the temple when he saw the vendors and money changers. If he was fully human, he must have been at least annoyed at times.

Many will undoubtedly disagree with me - but I reject the idea that Jesus acted out of anger. Not one of the three accounts mentions Jesus being angry.
The single reference to what drove him (emotionally?) is in John 2:17 and this refers to “Zeal” (referring to Psalm 69), and “zeal” is hardly synonymous with “anger”.
Likewise aggressive behavior can be taken without anger…such behavior occurs every Sunday during football season without anger being involved…(well most of the time.)
So the fact that Jesus aggressively removed the merchants does not in itself signify that anger was the driving force.

In a larger sense…I don’t think that Jesus did anything without forethought and reason. Since Jesus preached for three years he surely had been to the temple before and seen the merchants…yet he did nothing. Only when his passion was approaching did he take this step - a step that was highly provocative and was bound to get a reaction from the people, the high priest and the Sanhedrin.

No - I don’t think that anger had any thing to do with it…

Peace
James

 

[shoe]

I am not sure that anger is a personal test from our personal savior. If that were so, we would have the tendency to create in imitation of God our own anger so that we could practice our forgiveness by self generated means. Jesus was clear, I think, when he admonished the devil with the words of scripture: “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.” I also think that that YOU means the SELF in this case am not a counselor.

The anger of God, and therefore of Jesus, is not a test: It is simply the response of God’s Attribute of Righteousness and Justice toward unrighteousness and injustice. Since man is made in God’s image, God has imparted His sense of Righteousness and Justice to every human being; therefore, if sinful things such as murder, rape, and child abuse do not give us a strong feeling of disapproval (righteous indignation), then we have a serious character flaw.

 

[Michael19682]

The anger of God, and therefore of Jesus, is not a test: It is simply the response of God’s Attribute of Righteousness and Justice toward unrighteousness and injustice. Since man is made in God’s image, God has imparted His sense of Righteousness and Justice to every human being; therefore, if sinful things such as murder, rape, and child abuse do not give us a strong feeling of disapproval (righteous indignation), then we have a serious character flaw.

If that “strong feeling” is a form of anger, or anger itself, then it indicates not a serious character flaw (?) but a failure to know that God is just and that His reponses are unfailing. After all, the majority of these “sinful things” (in reality, ‘a thing’ is not sinful) come to our awareness after the sinner has been called to justice. I personally think it is not a good idea to hold onto to unforgiveness and label forgiveness a ‘character flaw’ if justice is adequate to remedy the sinned against. If God forgives, really we should too.