Anglican bishop lays mitre, crozier at our lady?s feet as he leaves for ordinariate [ewtn]

[JohnnyReb]

JohnnyReb,

My intent was not to deny others from stating their views, whether Catholic or not, but sometimes posters post their opinions in such a hurtful way. If one has the right to post their experiences then others have the same right to defend their own experiences without be scorned for doing so. Also it seems that some always have something negative to say. These boards are to express why a person believes as they do and hopefully get answers, not to denigrate another’s beliefs or experiences. I got the feeling from reading some of the posts that most other churches have better pastoral care than the Catholic Church. Which I haven’t found myself

Fair enough. I try to express my disagreements with the Catholic church in love, but that is always a challenge. I wish that is the standard that all tried to hold regardless of belief or church affliation. Without love, we are just making noise anyway.

I really have no interest in where one choses to attend church, it does not affect me, but as a former Anglican and recently attending a parish meeting where they are discussing going into the Ordinariate, many did bring up their dislike of authority over them. I do think that in some cases there are people who really can’t accept certain doctrines, however if one believes that Christ made Peter the head of the Church and gave him the authority to bind doctrines on earth and they would be bound in Heaven, then hopefully their fears of that authority will be resovled. If not then why not just find a spiritual home where you feel at peace. I just see constant turmoil in some posts that never seems to end. It is not healthy for ones soul and at some point one must decide what church they can grow in spiritually. I don’t feel that protestants in general are rebelling against the Church, but do see much anger from some towards the Church, which I don’t understand, if you don’t accept its teachings find a church home where you are content. We are just human with our own likes and dislikes and can discuss our differences without constantly finding fault with other faiths. There will never be a perfect parish, as human individuals we are sinful and that is not the Church, but people within it.

Once one resolves these issues peace should come and the conflict gone.

God Bless

Bernadette

I do think you bring up a valid point here. Alot of the dispute does come down to views on authority. The Catholic Church is consistant in its teachings when closely examined. However, one thing that I personally have used to evaluate to see if there is such a binding and losing authority (according to the Catholic interpretation of it) is to test the dogmas that have been bound and losed. In the end, I concluded that tradition alone was insufficient to establish a doctrine, so it became clear that my ideas about tradition where more in line with Anglican, Methodist/Wesleyan Christianity than Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Christ said that he gave us and left us with peace. We all certainly need that, especially in the advent season.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Consider that the CC tells people that if they do as you have suggested, they are in fact not part of the “real” Church, have no access to many sacraments, and their chances of making into Heaven are reduced. This is especially true for those who were brought up in the CC and indoctrinated with the idea that if they leave, they will go to Hell. Catholic posters tell people this all the time here. I am a bit surprised that you haven’t noticed this, or noticed that your advice to find another church to attend is a bit of a problem from a Catholic perspective. People struggle because they are told that there is really only one option, but there are things that make them very uncomfortable about that option.

Frankly I do get tired to being told the same things. In the grand scheme of things, we have to remember that they are simply repeating what is taught to them by their church and being faithful to church teachings. If I genuinely believed them to be right, I would be scared and shaking in my boots, and running to my local Catholic parish to make a confession right now. The fact that I am not shows where my beliefs are.

To me such thinking is too close to the Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses. Am I saying the RCC is a cult? No. But the praxis is very similar.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear Friends,

As someone who belongs to an Anglican society and is close to a number of Anglicans who are now in the process of forming an Ordinariate, I just wanted to say that our experiences with parishes, here and over there, can be a sensitive issue, to be sure.

I’ve read and re-read the posts here and don’t see how our Sister in Christ, Bernadette has said anything offensive. That is just not in her character. (I, on the other hand, am prone to get myself into hot water ).

Our Sister Bernadette is not only diplomatic, but genuinely irradiates the love of Jesus and Mary at all times.

Just thought I’d say that!

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Several of us were discussing our pastoral experiences with various churches. Some were good, some were bad. When our sister Bernadette heard negative experiences from folks like me, she got angry and took offense to it. You must not have re-read the posts very carefully, Alex. She is not offensive to me but rather she was the one feeling offended. I think she overreacted. She said the case is closed. I agree. So let’s not keep resurrecting it and move on.

Dear Friends,

As someone who belongs to an Anglican society and is close to a number of Anglicans who are now in the process of forming an Ordinariate, I just wanted to say that our experiences with parishes, here and over there, can be a sensitive issue, to be sure.

I’ve read and re-read the posts here and don’t see how our Sister in Christ, Bernadette has said anything offensive. That is just not in her character. (I, on the other hand, am prone to get myself into hot water ).

Our Sister Bernadette is not only diplomatic, but genuinely irradiates the love of Jesus and Mary at all times.

Just thought I’d say that!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I agree - we understand each other.

I was simply praising our sister Bernadette. Hope that’s in keeping with the rules of this Forum!

If you like, I’ll say something nice about you as well!

Alex

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No need. LOL…but thanks! Bernadette is a good person. No argument there. We just had a spat. It happens. Neither one of us holds a grudge. We’re cool. We’re all cool! We all could use compliments. I have nice penmanship.

I agree - we understand each other.

I was simply praising our sister Bernadette. Hope that’s in keeping with the rules of this Forum!

If you like, I’ll say something nice about you as well!

Alex

 

[BernadetteM]

Thank you Alex for the kind words.

My understanding of Catholics who leave the Church for another, is that if they fully know that the Catholic Church is the true Church that Christ founded and leave for lets say selfish reasons, then it would be reasonable that they might not make it to Heaven. If one leaves because they truely don’t believe that the Church is the One Church, then it is considered out of ignorance.

There are some traditional Catholics that hold that line that if you are not Catholic you go to hell, but if you read some of their sites Catholics who are not inline with their thinking will also go to hell because they don’t consider them Catholic.

Actually the Church itself does not judge who is in hell and who is not. I have seen many Catholics of CAF state that no one knows how God will judge anyone. It is we who are on earth that seem to do all the judging of others. I have seen several denominations who state that all Catholics are going to hell.

There are misguided people in every church. And for the last time I will say that I was not angry, but some remarks made were hurtful.

My parents died as Episcopalians and I know they are both with our Lord. The Anglicans I know who are on the journey to Rome through the Ordinariates have nothing but love and affection for their brothers and sisters in Christ who remain Anglican.

I will close my comments on this thread with this last post.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2 to BernadetteM

. . . .I suppose I feel insulted by some of the remarks that are being made here. . . . .

. . . .Maybe another thread on how Anglicans feel about the struggles they are going through with the choice they have made to be Anglicans would be more in context to the thread. If one is content, one doesn’t need to voice such unhappiness that I see in some of the posts.

BernadetteM,

Those of us in the Anglican Communion are dealing with serious issues and voicing our concerns about moving into communion with Rome is very much on topic. These are difficult times. Surely you know this having come from an Episcopal Church, yourself. I am glad things are settled for you; but they are not settled for all of us.

CAF has been a lifeline for me in so many ways for about 1 1/2 years. I’ve worked through many things here and have met Catholics who have patiently listened and stated their beliefs without condemning me. One of my Catholic friends, here, even mailed me three Books by a Catholic author. That is the love of Christ demonstrated to a complete stranger, and it means so much.

I know Gurney. We’ve had so many PM discussions about Anglicanism vs. Catholicism. I know he is not about bashing the Catholic Church. I’ve seen Gurney defend the CC on so many threads. On one particular thread he pointed out the fact that the Popes have done so much throughout history to safeguard against heresy. That stuck with me. That’s something I think about when I see an Anglican departure from Christian orthodoxy.

We’ve chosen to sort through all this on Catholic Forums. That gives Catholics a huge opportunity to demonstrate your faith to us.

There will never be a church that suits all of everyones’ needs. . . .

What does this mean, exactly? As a Catholic, do you believe there is no church that suits everyone’s needs?

I can only speak from my life experience as an Episcopalian and find that independence is part of their religious inner self.

Doesn’t knowing about this independence help you to understand the struggle with submitting religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking Ex Cathedra?

Of course there are many Catholics today who also depart from what the Church teaches for many reasons. I ask myself why they don’t leave and find a spiritual home where they are free to do as they please.

This is a rather shocking statement for a Catholic. If you truly believe the CC is the one true Church, why would you want Catholics to find a different spiritual home, rather than praying for them to find the truth within the CC?

I really do feel a sadness for people who must wander in the desert searching for that perfect place. My prayers go out to them that they will finally find the peace they are searching for.

Rather condescending towards those of us who “must wonder in the desert searching for that perfect place.” Though I do appreciate the prayers.

. . . .My intent was not to deny others from stating their views. . . .These boards are to express why a person believes as they do and hopefully get answers, not to denigrate another’s beliefs or experiences.

But, you did want Gurney to take his concerns to another thread.

Who has “denigrated” the beliefs and experiences of others? Is this directed at Gurney?

Continued—next post

 

[Anna_Scott]

Continued Part 2 of 2 to BernadetteM

I got the feeling from reading some of the posts that most other churches have better pastoral care than the Catholic Church. Which I haven’t found myself.

We all must deal with the experiences within the Parishes where we live. Gurney was talking about his local experience.

I really have no interest in where one choses to attend church, it does not affect me. . . .

Another shocking statement for a Catholic. Are we not all to pray for unity in Christ? I have Catholic friends who tell me they are praying that I will find my way to the CC. This does not offend me. It lets me know they care, without being judgmental.

I do think that in some cases there are people who really can’t accept certain doctrines, however if one believes that Christ made Peter the head of the Church and gave him the authority to bind doctrines on earth and they would be bound in Heaven, then hopefully their fears of that authority will be resovled.

The “primacy” of Peter has been the topic of many past threads. It is not simply an Anglican vs. Catholic issue. It is an issue for the Orthodox Church as well. And it is an issue all must seriously consider when investigating Catholicism.

If not then why not just find a spiritual home where you feel at peace.

Again–a rather shocking statement for a Catholic. Would you rather all the non-Catholics leave the forum discussions and find a “spiritual home” elsewhere? Wouldn’t it be better for us to work out the issues here, since we are considering Catholicism? Isn’t CAF here as a witness to the Catholic faith?

I just see constant turmoil in some posts that never seems to end. It is not healthy for ones soul and at some point one must decide what church they can grow in spiritually.

I agree that eventually we must decide upon a Church. Wouldn’t you rather us work out the “turmoil” here, where we are exposed to Catholics who care about the fate of our souls?

I don’t feel that protestants in general are rebelling against the Church. . . .

But, that is precisely what you said:

If one can’t find it in their heart to be obedient to the Catholic Church, then hopefully they can be obedient to God’s will. I say obedient because that to me is the crux of the matter with not only Anglicans but others.

if you don’t accept its teachings find a church home where you are content. . . . .

Again, shocking statement for a Catholic.

We are just human with our own likes and dislikes and can discuss our differences without constantly finding fault with other faiths. . .

You are saying we should be able to discuss our differences without finding faults with other faiths—and in the same breath, you are finding faults with other faiths.

I have gotten much more pastoral care in the Catholic Church than I ever got in the Episcopal church.

. . . . .I found the Episcopal church in general cold and unfeeling. When one speaks of money, boy the bigger the donner the most attention you receive, so it goes both ways I suppose.

If one can’t find it in their heart to be obedient to the Catholic Church, then hopefully they can be obedient to God’s will. I say obedient because that to me is the crux of the matter with not only Anglicans but others.

I do think that in some cases there are people who really can’t accept certain doctrines. . . .

So, you are saying the Episcopal Church is cold, unfeeling, gives attention to people according to the size of their donations; and has an obedience problem, as do others; and in some cases there are people who really can’t accept certain doctrines.

Yet, you are offended by Gurney’s posts. I don’t understand. . . .

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Several of us were discussing our pastoral experiences with various churches. Some were good, some were bad. When our sister Bernadette heard negative experiences from folks like me, she got angry and took offense to it. You must not have re-read the posts very carefully, Alex. She is not offensive to me but rather she was the one feeling offended. I think she overreacted. She said the case is closed. I agree. So let’s not keep resurrecting it and move on.

Gurney,
I’m sorry, I posted again on the issue. I’m sure Bernadette’s intentions were in the right place; but I was disturbed by some of her comments. Guess this struggle is really taking its toll on me.

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The case is closed for me; I’m ready to move on. With each passing week I like my Anglican parish more and more. It gets harder to leave! My wife sighs at the mention of going Catholic again. My two sons are bummed at the thought and they’re only 5 and 2.5! Veronica likes St. Mary’s because her namesake is a Station of the Cross there, number six to be exact, and she likes the holy water We joke that since Luke goes to a Lutheran school, he’s a little Lutheran, Caleb an Anglican, and Veronica the Catholic LOL!

Gurney,
I’m sorry, I posted again on the issue. I’m sure Bernadette’s intentions were in the right place; but I was disturbed by some of her comments. Guess this struggle is really taking its toll on me.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you Alex for the kind words.

My understanding of Catholics who leave the Church for another, is that if they fully know that the Catholic Church is the true Church that Christ founded and leave for lets say selfish reasons, then it would be reasonable that they might not make it to Heaven. If one leaves because they truely don’t believe that the Church is the One Church, then it is considered out of ignorance.

There are some traditional Catholics that hold that line that if you are not Catholic you go to hell, but if you read some of their sites Catholics who are not inline with their thinking will also go to hell because they don’t consider them Catholic.

Actually the Church itself does not judge who is in hell and who is not. I have seen many Catholics of CAF state that no one knows how God will judge anyone. It is we who are on earth that seem to do all the judging of others. I have seen several denominations who state that all Catholics are going to hell.

There are misguided people in every church. And for the last time I will say that I was not angry, but some remarks made were hurtful.

My parents died as Episcopalians and I know they are both with our Lord. The Anglicans I know who are on the journey to Rome through the Ordinariates have nothing but love and affection for their brothers and sisters in Christ who remain Anglican.

I will close my comments on this thread with this last post.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Bernadette,
I really hate to see you leave the thread, especially if you think we have misunderstood the tone or intention of your posts.

We are all passionate about what we believe; and I thank God Catholics and for the freedom of speech we enjoy on CAF.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Bernadette

Bernadette,

I tried to answer your PM, but your inbox is full. So, will answer you here. I will not quote your PM for privacy reasons.

These words are what we need to hear on the forums where those of us are still struggling. We need to hear what you went through in making your decision, and why you ultimately chose the Catholic Church.

Communities are being torn apart. There are Churches in my area that broke with TEC, and it split the congregation. This is traumatic and has far reaching effects for not only the members of the Parish, but the community in which they serve.

I doubt any of us are relying solely upon CAF. I have the CCC. I’m studying the history of the Christian Church. I read one book after another. Most of us are.

Yet, the Church is still made up of individuals, and I doubt there is even one Priest, Catholic or Anglican, who has the time to have the lengthy discussions we have here. I have certainly tried the patience of my Episcopal Priests.

Anyway, gotta get some errands done.
Anna

 

[gmcbroom]

If I may? Faith is spiritually and emotionally charged issue that affects people in a wide variety of ways. When one has a crisis of faith then emotions can be even stronger. This thread has evoked a variety of responses and and thats to be expected.
As someone who grew up going to a Disciples of Christ church off and on, then leaving it completely and wandering in the desert (which is full of many perils) it took me a long time to come to the catholic church. Though admittedly I’m a Maronite catholic and not Roman in patrimony (it resonated the most with me) I’m happy to be home. It wasn’t easy for me to accept all the doctrines and dogmas. In the end I accepted them on faith. God in inscrutable so we can never know all of him (he’s simply to big for us to completely comprehend since we’re human) Why do I say that? It’s simple sometimes you just have to take things on faith. If something is holding you back from coming to catholism then your right to stop and think on it. If something drove you from the church then that also is valid reason to stop and think. But, at some point we all have or had to make a decision. I pray you find peace wherever you go. I actually like Anglicanism and almost joined you but somethings I just couldn’t get over. I went where I feel at home and I hope you all do the same. God Bless

 

[Anna_Scott]

If I may? Faith is spiritually and emotionally charged issue that affects people in a wide variety of ways. When one has a crisis of faith then emotions can be even stronger. This thread has evoked a variety of responses and and thats to be expected.

gmcbroom,

I really appreciate your post. I’m happy you have found your way to the Catholic Church. You are right, when there is a crisis of faith, emotions are even stronger. Theological developments within the Anglican Communion have created just such a crisis for so many. It is gut-wrenching to tell you the truth.

As someone who grew up going to a Disciples of Christ church off and on, then leaving it completely and wandering in the desert (which is full of many perils) it took me a long time to come to the catholic church. Though admittedly I’m a Maronite catholic and not Roman in patrimony (it resonated the most with me) I’m happy to be home.

I’ve been in that “desert” and it is indeed perilous. I grew up in the Baptist faith, so taking the step to Anglicanism was huge for me. Yet, just when I thought I had found my place within Christendom; all the controversial issues within Anglicanism reached a boiling point.

It wasn’t easy for me to accept all the doctrines and dogmas. In the end I accepted them on faith. God in inscrutable so we can never know all of him (he’s simply to big for us to completely comprehend since we’re human) Why do I say that? It’s simple sometimes you just have to take things on faith. If something is holding you back from coming to catholism then your right to stop and think on it. If something drove you from the church then that also is valid reason to stop and think. But, at some point we all have or had to make a decision. I pray you find peace wherever you go. I actually like Anglicanism and almost joined you but somethings I just couldn’t get over. I went where I feel at home and I hope you all do the same. God Bless

I agree that in the end, where we land does come down to faith. There was a point when I was ready to run to the Catholic Church; but my friend reminded me that running from something was not a reason to convert; and he was right. As I said, if I convert to Catholicism, it must be with my whole heart. Anything less would be dishonest on my part.

Thanks again for post.

Peace and blessings for your continued journey,
Anna

 

[JohnnyReb]

Bernadette,

I tried to answer your PM, but your inbox is full. So, will answer you here. I will not quote your PM for privacy reasons.

These words are what we need to hear on the forums where those of us are still struggling. We need to hear what you went through in making your decision, and why you ultimately chose the Catholic Church.

Communities are being torn apart. There are Churches in my area that broke with TEC, and it split the congregation. This is traumatic and has far reaching effects for not only the members of the Parish, but the community in which they serve.

I doubt any of us are relying solely upon CAF. I have the CCC. I’m studying the history of the Christian Church. I read one book after another. Most of us are.

Yet, the Church is still made up of individuals, and I doubt there is even one Priest, Catholic or Anglican, who has the time to have the lengthy discussions we have here. I have certainly tried the patience of my Episcopal Priests.

Anyway, gotta get some errands done.
Anna

I too would welcome her story and insight on how she came to the decision she did. In alot of ways, Catholicism offers some comfort in the world of confusion that is in some Anglican circles these days.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I too would welcome her story and insight on how she came to the decision she did. In alot of ways, Catholicism offers some comfort in the world of confusion that is in some Anglican circles these days.

Hey johnnyReb,

I hope BernadetteM will come back to the thread. After sorting through some misunderstandings; I think she has some insightful things to share.

You’re right. Catholicism does offer some comfort in the world of confusion coming from some Anglican circles. But—there’s a lot of good in Anglicanism too.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t think you read my post, Jim. Again, I get it, friend. I get it! And I’m not a fan of running over to Father James face-to-face with confession. No thanks. Again, read my post and listen to what I’m trying to say. RATIONALE! RATIONALE! How is the for any who need it when they need it a historical position? How is it consistent? How is it Catholic? I think the fact, with all due respect, that you can’t answer that and keep telling me just to get my tukus over to confess is a sign that you can’t explain it and that Anglicanism isn’t as historical as it claims to be. I don’t say that to be a jerk, I’m just saying it analytically. It seems that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are consistent with penance/reconciliation and Anglicanism has succumbled to this wishy-washy, “if ya need it, what the heck” approach. I’m saying, WHY? I’m not asking if it’s available

OK, so I have inquired about this to my friend who has a background in Reformation history, and she inquired to her dad, who is an Anglican priest. There seem to be a few things going on. You probably know a lot of this already, but I’ll write what she told me.

1. As you probably know, the reformers set up something of a hierarchy of sacraments. Confession ended up in the second tier for a variety of reasons. Like things like marriage or holy orders, it isn’t something that is understood to be strictly necessary for all people. But it is efficacious for some people at some times.
2. Because they rejected the distinctions regarding temporal effects of sin and the idea of purgatory, and embraced justification by faith, some of the purpose of confession as practiced by the Roman Church was lost. It was no longer necessary for the forgiveness of sins, nor for getting a penance.
3. There was during the period a lot of distaste for the practice caused by abuses - not just indulgences but claims of things like priests harassing women in the confessional. (Whether many or any of these claims were true is a question, but the claims were widely made.)
4. Nonetheless, it was retained because it was seen as having a long history of use, and as being spiritually and psychologically to the benefit of many penitents. (What does this mean? Perhaps they would say it doesn’t matter precisely how it works, simply that it does.)
5. My friend and her father both agreed that the reformers probably did not imagine the degree to which the practice would be lost.

 

[Anna_Scott]

OK, so I have inquired about this to my friend who has a background in Reformation history, and she inquired to her dad, who is an Anglican priest. There seem to be a few things going on. You probably know a lot of this already, but I’ll write what she told me.

1. As you probably know, the reformers set up something of a hierarchy of sacraments. Confession ended up in the second tier for a variety of reasons. Like things like marriage or holy orders, it isn’t something that is understood to be strictly necessary for all people. But it is efficacious for some people at some times.
2. Because they rejected the distinctions regarding temporal effects of sin and the idea of purgatory, and embraced justification by faith, some of the purpose of confession as practiced by the Roman Church was lost. It was no longer necessary for the forgiveness of sins, nor for getting a penance.
3. There was during the period a lot of distaste for the practice caused by abuses - not just indulgences but claims of things like priests harassing women in the confessional. (Whether many or any of these claims were true is a question, but the claims were widely made.)
4. Nonetheless, it was retained because it was seen as having a long history of use, and as being spiritually and psychologically to the benefit of many penitents. (What does this mean? Perhaps they would say it doesn’t matter precisely how it works, simply that it does.)
5. My friend and her father both agreed that the reformers probably did not imagine the degree to which the practice would be lost.

Bluegoat,

I really appreciate this post. I think it is probably true that the reformers did not imagine the degree to which the practice would be lost. That seems to be the case for many doctrines and practices. Martin Luther would probably be mortified to know just how much was lost by the time the dust of the Reformation settled. Granted, things are still evolving in the Protestant sector, so I suppose the dust hasn’t really completely settled.

I think Anglican Parishes more inclined toward Catholicism place a higher emphasis on Confession. Our Rector hears Confession and gives Penance. Our worship is high Church and the Catholic and Orthodox emphasis is clear and visible throughout the practices of our Parish.

Again, the information is much appreciated,
Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I actually do know all this, Meghan, but I sure appreciate your talking to your friend and inquiring. It’s good to review the reality of the Reformation sometimes. I’m really in the middle of trying to understand how I view so many things about my faith. I’m not sure whether I believe in infusion of grace or imputation. Reading Paul/Galatians/Romans I sure tend toward the Protestant view. My views on the Atonement are definitely Western and are substitutionary. I don’t buy the Christus Victor/Orthodox views for a minute honestly. I’m too Augustinian for them!

I think you touched on an important point though. If we are saved through an imputation of grace, then confession becomes more in the Martin Luther vein of things. Luther believed that the absolution we hear at confession is just a declaration of what God has already done for a contrite sinner. It’s just a verbal reassurance, an oral declaration of a completed act in Heaven. I think the Anglicans view it in a similar light. The Catholics see it from a totally different vantage point.

What is your view of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about infusion and sanctification and justification being part of the same process and that salvation is a process in stages of infusion? I’d like your take, Meghan.

OK, so I have inquired about this to my friend who has a background in Reformation history, and she inquired to her dad, who is an Anglican priest. There seem to be a few things going on. You probably know a lot of this already, but I’ll write what she told me.

1. As you probably know, the reformers set up something of a hierarchy of sacraments. Confession ended up in the second tier for a variety of reasons. Like things like marriage or holy orders, it isn’t something that is understood to be strictly necessary for all people. But it is efficacious for some people at some times.
2. Because they rejected the distinctions regarding temporal effects of sin and the idea of purgatory, and embraced justification by faith, some of the purpose of confession as practiced by the Roman Church was lost. It was no longer necessary for the forgiveness of sins, nor for getting a penance.
3. There was during the period a lot of distaste for the practice caused by abuses - not just indulgences but claims of things like priests harassing women in the confessional. (Whether many or any of these claims were true is a question, but the claims were widely made.)
4. Nonetheless, it was retained because it was seen as having a long history of use, and as being spiritually and psychologically to the benefit of many penitents. (What does this mean? Perhaps they would say it doesn’t matter precisely how it works, simply that it does.)
5. My friend and her father both agreed that the reformers probably did not imagine the degree to which the practice would be lost.