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GKC
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Like I said, it all involves Venn diagrams.GKC invented the term “particulars” so you’ll have to get him to unpack that term!
GKC
Anglican bishop lays mitre, crozier at our lady?s feet as he leaves for ordinariate [ewtn]
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GKC
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
From a Catholic point of view, the Bishop is now at the top of Bloom’s Taxonomy and you and I as Anglicans are at synthesis level trying to synthesize the catholic and protestant history of the Church of England into a palatable communion 
I’m stuck trying to synthesize Packer, Staley, Luther, Newman, and Cranmer and I just can’t get to evaluation level yet!
I’m stuck trying to synthesize Packer, Staley, Luther, Newman, and Cranmer and I just can’t get to evaluation level yet!
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MarkBrown
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jordananglo,
the 100 groups are the number of splinter groups from the Anglican Communion in the States. Some are in communion with the CoE and some are not in communion with anyone. Some of these groups are interested and some are not. Some have seminary trained priests, some do not. For example, one group out of Hawaii exist only on paper (or the internet). A local Catholic Church was approached by one of its bishops to use the Church for an ordination. The priest had never heard of them. He called me. I went to his office…long story short…they had about 18 bishops and not one parish. This bishop did not get the use of the Church. The priest ordained by them has approached the Church about the pastoral provision and me about the Ordinariate. No seminary training, no college. Theology shakey to say the least. The Diocese declined to let him proceed future. I have put him off until the Ordinary is assigned. Then he (the Ordinary) can review his application, which I do not think will go far.
That is what I mean about wading through here in the States. Now there are 50+ parishes etc looking to join. The EWTN news has just announced another Canadian parish has voted to join. I plan to look and see if they are already on the list.
The Met.Bishop of the ALCC has post here prior. I know one of their Bishop’s posts on the Anglo-Catholic. I do not know how their application for their own type of ordinariate will be handled. I can see Rome rolling them into an already established US Ordinariate, like what is possibly happening in the UK with the TAC Church. The Ordinariate was established with the main push, apparently, on the CoE. TAC will be a part. If the ALCC does not come under the Anglican Ordinariate, it could be many long years before Rome establishes one for them. Unless the ALCC is so different from Anglicans in the A.U., Continuing Churches and such, I do not see a point. Our liturgy will be approved by Rome. I am a 1928 BCP man. Once in the A.U., I will not be using it anymore. Our diverse liturgical styles will end. Book of Divine Worship will be the established for ever how long Rome tells us.
Oh and the reason I say the ALCC may have a bit of a wait on their individual petition. The TAC in 1993 made it know its intent for communion. In 2007 it Bishops submited to the Catechism of the Church. It has taken 3 years after that for Rome to start setting thing up, or 17 years of waiting for some in the TAC.
Fr. Mark
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GKC
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Let me know how that works out for you.From a Catholic point of view, the Bishop is now at the top of Bloom’s Taxonomy and you and I as Anglicans are at synthesis level trying to synthesize the catholic and protestant history of the Church of England into a palatable communion
GKC
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JesusforMadrid
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Father Mark,
Why wouldn’t many of these Anglo Catholic churches go Western Rite Orthodox. They could keep their Anglo Catholic rites basically unchanged (after removing the filioque), especially with the Divine Liturgy of St. Tikhon, based on the 1928 BCP or the English Liturgy, based on the 1549 English Book of Common Prayer. I have read the Sarum rite, a pre-Reformation English rite that is also used and it is very beautiful and also available in Spanish. So liturgically, I should think Western Rite would be easier.
Also, for some Anglo Catholic Churches that cannot stomach some of the more recent dogma such as the IC, papal infallibility or purgatory, Western Rite Orthodoxy would seem an easier choice.
For others like the TAC or ALCC that have accepted 100% of the Catechism of the RCC, I suppose going to Rome is the obvious choice, but even for them they will need to submit to liturgical changes, as you admit.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
It’s funny how in so many of the relationships I read in CAF (mine included!) one spouse is super into religion and on this deep, well-read, probing, complex spiritual journey and the other spouse is content with a simple faith. My wife doesn’t have all the crazy religious issues I have. She wants to stay Anglican, pure and simple. If we never went back to the Catholic Church a day in our life she’d be ok with it, and she grew up in the Philippines. I’m on a daily struggle to understand my faith, which Church I belong in, and a quest for the truth. My wife told me last night, “I believe in Jesus and that He died for my sins, and that we should live the life He wants for us. That’s enough for me.” And she’s a whole lot happier about this stuff than me! Maybe a simple philosophy is the key!
I’m on Catholic Answers Forums every night, my wife is on Facebook and kids websites or reading recipes or uploading pictures. We’re so different in this regard. And I think she’s a ten times better person than yours truly! Maybe I need to follow her example. My dad is so much like my wife. And they’re both the easy-going ones!
I’m on Catholic Answers Forums every night, my wife is on Facebook and kids websites or reading recipes or uploading pictures. We’re so different in this regard. And I think she’s a ten times better person than yours truly! Maybe I need to follow her example. My dad is so much like my wife. And they’re both the easy-going ones!
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tomarin
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Indeed. My wife’s attitude towards religion is so simple and unreflective it might be called plain old agnosticism.
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ConstantineTG
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Thanks Fr. Mark! I will be awaiting word eagerly.
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gurneyhalleck1
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My wife’s not agnostic by any means but she just prefers to keep it simple. She told me she doesn’t know why I’m concerned about whether we’re saved by infusion or imputation? I said, “because it totally affects how we view our relationship with God and how He saves us!” She looked like, “ok, well, whatever” LOL! She has a “hey, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, I’m flexible” approach! Like I said, she’s a good woman, a lot holier, more selfless, caring, genuine, and charitable than I am. I wish I could me more like my wife.
I think some of the comments I’ve read to my wife from CAF have actually made her less enthusiastic about being Catholic. We’ve had people on CAF tell us that we’re making our kids into moral relativists because we’re sending them to a Lutheran school, that we’re lousy parents for doing so, that for going to the Anglican church we’re this that and the other, and when we were going through a total “we hate NFP” crisis back in 2007 we got so excoriated in here that my wife totally wanted to puke. She reads some of the questions on CAF that say stuff like “is going to a chiropractor evil?” and “I forgot to say an act of contrition two months ago, am I still in mortal sin?” and “will I go to hell for attending a baptist wedding?” and that stuff turns her off. I can see her point. Overscrupulosity is a scary thing. When I was Catholic I was like that a bit and I hated it.
My wife is pretty flexible. I’m actually glad about it at times. If she was as theologically-obsessed and kookoo as me there’d be too much insanity in our home
Like I said, she’s a good woman, a lot holier, more selfless, caring, genuine, and charitable than I am. I wish I could me more like my wife.I think some of the comments I’ve read to my wife from CAF have actually made her less enthusiastic about being Catholic. We’ve had people on CAF tell us that we’re making our kids into moral relativists because we’re sending them to a Lutheran school, that we’re lousy parents for doing so, that for going to the Anglican church we’re this that and the other, and when we were going through a total “we hate NFP” crisis back in 2007 we got so excoriated in here that my wife totally wanted to puke. She reads some of the questions on CAF that say stuff like “is going to a chiropractor evil?” and “I forgot to say an act of contrition two months ago, am I still in mortal sin?” and “will I go to hell for attending a baptist wedding?” and that stuff turns her off. I can see her point. Overscrupulosity is a scary thing. When I was Catholic I was like that a bit and I hated it.
My wife is pretty flexible. I’m actually glad about it at times. If she was as theologically-obsessed and kookoo as me there’d be too much insanity in our home
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BernadetteM
Guest
The Orthodox do accept that Mary was immaculate, just don’t define when this happened. Read some of their liturgies. Many Orthodox believe in Toll Houses, which appear to be similar to Purgatory. I much prefer having one head of the Church as Christ appointed Peter to be. This has kept the Church without error in doctrinal beliefs. I understand that many don’t like authority, but without authority you have heresy and schism. Christ said there is to be One Church not many. Many evangelicals would rather be Orthodox as it is easier and more like the Protestant churches, i.e. birth control, being allowed to be divorced and remarried three times. Although the Catholic Church recognizes Orthodoxy as a valid and sister Church, I personally still feel that I prefer being part of the Western Church and also believe that we must be in communion with the See of Peter.
I have attended the Western Rite of the Orthodox and felt very uncomfortable during the liturgy, it is a Western Rite in an Orthodox Church, Where the Anglican Use is another Latin Rite liturgy. Most Anglicans are more in line with the Catholic Church. Also the Orthodox have their own problems and in some ways are not united. The Catholic Church is universal including around 23 different rites, including Eastern Rite Catholics. I find it more welcoming than the Orthodox Church. It has been the major missionary Church for the past 2000 years and I don’t find this true of any other church. Of course in the past 100 years many protestant denominations have become missionaries, but many times instead of trying to bring in unbelievers they try to convert Catholics who are already Christian.
The Sarum Use is not one that very few Anglicans in the US or even in England have been exposed to. Although the Canon used in the Anglican Use Catholic parishes is taken from it and from the Canon used in the Tradiational Latin Rite liturgy.
I always wonder why protestants and some Orthodox try to convert Anglicans to become Orthodox instead of Catholic. This is a personal decision and they have been led by the Holy Spirit to Christ’s Church. The Church is holy and pure, although as in all churches there are individual sinners, but their sins do not reflect the truth of the Catholic Church.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
I have attended the Western Rite of the Orthodox and felt very uncomfortable during the liturgy, it is a Western Rite in an Orthodox Church, Where the Anglican Use is another Latin Rite liturgy. Most Anglicans are more in line with the Catholic Church. Also the Orthodox have their own problems and in some ways are not united. The Catholic Church is universal including around 23 different rites, including Eastern Rite Catholics. I find it more welcoming than the Orthodox Church. It has been the major missionary Church for the past 2000 years and I don’t find this true of any other church. Of course in the past 100 years many protestant denominations have become missionaries, but many times instead of trying to bring in unbelievers they try to convert Catholics who are already Christian.
The Sarum Use is not one that very few Anglicans in the US or even in England have been exposed to. Although the Canon used in the Anglican Use Catholic parishes is taken from it and from the Canon used in the Tradiational Latin Rite liturgy.
I always wonder why protestants and some Orthodox try to convert Anglicans to become Orthodox instead of Catholic. This is a personal decision and they have been led by the Holy Spirit to Christ’s Church. The Church is holy and pure, although as in all churches there are individual sinners, but their sins do not reflect the truth of the Catholic Church.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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Alexander_Roman
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Dear Bernadatte,
Yes, I meant “Anglican” in terms of “Anglican patrimony” in the first instance!
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
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Dear Father Mark,
Is it true that the Anglican Catholic bishops seeking union with Rome are also desirous of having the veneration for Bl. Charles the Martyr regularized?
Alex
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gurneyhalleck1
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It makes a lot of sense actually. Anglicans by nature don’t trust the papacy due to the corruption and theological disputes they have with medievel papalism. Anglicans believe catholicism is possible without a pope. So it stands to reason that Anglicans would prefer to see their brethren who decide to not stay Anglican to go to another church i.e. Orthodoxy, that is orthodox (small o) and historically catholic and pope-free.
When you say without authority you have heresy and schism, I think the Orthodox would point out that Orthodoxy, for all intents, hasn’t had any heresy worth mentioning in the last 1,000 years while the Catholic Church had the mammoth Protestant Reformation as well as the SSPX, the Sedevacantists, the Novus Ordo Mass, etc. ]
I think many Anglicans who are disatisfied with the CofE, etc. have chosen Catholicism over Orthodoxy because Anglicanism is closer to Catholicism with its devotions, style of Mass, Stations of the Cross, filioque, the Catholic Church influencing the thought of the English Church for so many centuries and add to that the fact that these anglo-Catholics have already co-opted many Western Catholic trappings for years AND the fact that the chaotic, lousy decisions of recent ABC’s have created a strong desire in their hearts for a leader, a central authority. Someone coming out of chaos is highly attracted to the papacy.
When you say without authority you have heresy and schism, I think the Orthodox would point out that Orthodoxy, for all intents, hasn’t had any heresy worth mentioning in the last 1,000 years while the Catholic Church had the mammoth Protestant Reformation as well as the SSPX, the Sedevacantists, the Novus Ordo Mass, etc. ]
I think many Anglicans who are disatisfied with the CofE, etc. have chosen Catholicism over Orthodoxy because Anglicanism is closer to Catholicism with its devotions, style of Mass, Stations of the Cross, filioque, the Catholic Church influencing the thought of the English Church for so many centuries and add to that the fact that these anglo-Catholics have already co-opted many Western Catholic trappings for years AND the fact that the chaotic, lousy decisions of recent ABC’s have created a strong desire in their hearts for a leader, a central authority. Someone coming out of chaos is highly attracted to the papacy.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Note that Eastern Catholics believe almost everything their Orthodox counterpart believe. The major point of contention is acceptance of the Primacy of the Pope. Things like Purgatory and Original Sin are not defined in Eastern Catholic Churches the same way they are defined in the West. Western Theology always seeks to define doctrine. In the case of Purgatory, the East has always followed traditions on praying for the dead but never elaborate on that state as something with a cleansing fire. There will be theologians who will try to use explanations such as the Toll Houses you mention, but never set it down as part of doctrine or dogma. The West would.
Maybe because they find it easier to distort a view rather than to convince one to believe in the basics of Christian faith. Its easier to ask someone, “do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?” when they already know and accept Jesus , rather than convince someone who doesn’t acknowledge Jesus as God and Savior. Besides, I find most of these groups today are built on proving the Catholic viewpoint wrong. And since the Orthodox and traditional Anglicans believe most of the same things as Catholics do, its easier to proselytize.
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Alexander_Roman
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Dear Bernadette - thank you for your exhaustive post!
The Orthodox celebrate the Holy Conception of the Mothe of God on December 9th and so have always affirmed that she was sinless throughout her entire life (they don’t accept the Western “Stain” idea of Original Sin to begin with).
Certainly, as a Western Rite group, the Anglicans would be more “at home” in a Western Church i.e. the RC Church. Plus there are Eastern Orthodox who are themselves uncomfortable with anything “Western” and tensions are there, just as there are tensions between RC’s and EC’s for the same reason (I noticed these when I attended the Antiochian Orthodox Church conference here in Toronto some years back).
The Orthodox discourage remarriage, artificial birth control etc. Bishops will make exceptions in particular cases. Frankly, the same thing happens in the Roman Catholic Church with all the “marriage annulments” that go on, especially in the U.S. Are these not forms of “divorce” after all? Do you mean that a psychological assessment of a couple can effect an annulment in the Catholic Church? Is that not divorce by the back door? And what about all the Catholics who practice artificial birth control etc. Just some points.
Alex
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BernadetteM
Guest
Although the Orthodox might discourage divorce and remarriage, it is my understanding a given that one might be allowed to be married three times. Yes in these past years it has become easier to get an annulment, but a person still must go through this process and hopefully just going through this will open up one’s eyes to what marriage is. The US is full of liberals and it seems that Pope Benedict is trying to bring back more orthodoxy.
I understand that the Orthodox don’t define doctrines, which to be honest, bothers me. I have asked questions of Orthodox and can’t seem to get a straight answer. Of course I accept that Christ gave Peter the authority to bind doctrines and disciplines on earth. I think that this is the crux of the matter of defining what the Church teaches. Whether one is Eastern Rite Catholic or Latin Rite Catholic we are all equal in the eyes of the Church. We are one body and within this body we express our individual traditions, which to me is a beautiful thing. I know that many Catholics aren’t familiar with the Eastern Rites, nor shall they be with the Anglican Use/Ordinariate. We need the Church to educate all Catholics that there is more than one liturgy and traditions within the Church.
I think that at least in the beginning many Catholics will be critical of the Ordinariates, as they will have no understanding of them, this is also true for the Eastern Rites. My prayer is that in time we will have a better system of teaching the fullness of what it means to be Catholic, including those who are different than the typical Latin Rite Catholics.
I have attended one Eastern Rite liturgy many years ago and felt very welcome. As I have stated trying to put a Western Rite within Orthodoxy doesn’t seem natural to me. It was Antiochian (sp). They had left my former Episcopal church and joined the Orthodox. I found the two experiences very different. I also attended one in Michigan and they were all former Episcopalians and latched on to my daughter and I trying to convince us to join. I am a very private person and really don’t attend church to bring attention to myself. I also found this to be the case when I attended some protestant churches.
I have watched Eastern liturgies and they are beautiful and have brought their own treasures into the Church. The Church is diversified, but one in unity.
God Bless
Bernadette
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gurneyhalleck1
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Not to get off topic but I’ve heard several Orthodox posters on here tell me that Orthodox Christians are usually allowed three divorces and they actually call a spade a spade and use the word “divorce” rather than other jargon. I agree with your assessment that the Catholic Church issues a lot of “annulments,” which are supposed to be declarations that a valid marriage never really took place, but the reality is they often are just divorces wrapped in different paper. I do appreciate, at least, the fact that the Catholic Church cares enough about marriage and its sanctity to at least have a process and require Catholics to enter the annulment process to analyze the situation, not making it too easy, and trying to discourage it. I think marriage has become all too trivial in this country and this day and age in general.
I think the annulment mentality has dangers though. In the Philippines, where my wife is from, divorce is actually illegal because the Church has such a grip on the secular government. What ends up happening is men leave their wives (this has happened in like five cases in my wife’s family alone!) and abandon them. The man then shacks up with someone younger and prettier, impregnates her, then moves on. All the women are left with crying babies, having to work two jobs, and NO ALIMONY because divorce is illegal. They have “annulments” that cost around $800 to obtain. In the Philippines an entire month’s salary is around $300 AT BEST on a good month and that’s just to survive. So the men come out ahead, women left in the dust. The result? I’ve been to the Philippines four times and keep in touch with what’s going on there a lot. What’s the result? Men and women aren’t marrying. They’re cohabitating and having kids together and doing more of the “trial marriage” stuff. If they decide they’re not right for each other, they can split and still have a possibility of marrying. If they marry and it doesn’t work out, no more chances. The women are paranoid about being dumped, understandably. It’s crazy.
I think the annulment mentality has dangers though. In the Philippines, where my wife is from, divorce is actually illegal because the Church has such a grip on the secular government. What ends up happening is men leave their wives (this has happened in like five cases in my wife’s family alone!) and abandon them. The man then shacks up with someone younger and prettier, impregnates her, then moves on. All the women are left with crying babies, having to work two jobs, and NO ALIMONY because divorce is illegal. They have “annulments” that cost around $800 to obtain. In the Philippines an entire month’s salary is around $300 AT BEST on a good month and that’s just to survive. So the men come out ahead, women left in the dust. The result? I’ve been to the Philippines four times and keep in touch with what’s going on there a lot. What’s the result? Men and women aren’t marrying. They’re cohabitating and having kids together and doing more of the “trial marriage” stuff. If they decide they’re not right for each other, they can split and still have a possibility of marrying. If they marry and it doesn’t work out, no more chances. The women are paranoid about being dumped, understandably. It’s crazy.
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tomarin
Guest
She sounds like a good woman. Sometimes even I feel like God wouldn’t make everything so darn hard to understand. (I say even I because in general I’m drawn to religious controversy – probably why I keep returning to this site – and am only now starting to realize how difficult if not impossible it is to settle such questions.)My wife’s not agnostic by any means but she just prefers to keep it simple. She told me she doesn’t know why I’m concerned about whether we’re saved by infusion or imputation? I said, “because it totally affects how we view our relationship with God and how He saves us!” She looked like, “ok, well, whatever” LOL! She has a “hey, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, I’m flexible” approach!
Maybe ultimately the kind of probing, complex spiritual journey you described above is a kind of hobby and not one that is everyone’s cup of tea? Most of the real-life Catholics I interact with at church and so on rarely discuss the things that are done to death here at CAF, for better or worse.
That’s easy to believe. This is a strange place.
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gurneyhalleck1
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I agree with all you’ve said here. I have experienced a triumphalist anti-Protestant zeal at times that isn’t healthy. As many in here know, my grandmother is dying. She has been dying in the hospital due to a massive hemorragic stroke the day after Thanksgiving. It devastated her and she’s completely gone mentally but physically hanging by a thread. It has been HARD on us, especially on my mom and I. Today I told a co-worker of mine, a religious woman and wife of a Mennonite minister. She quickly asked me, “Scott, can we pray together please!?” She ran to me, took my hand, asked another teacher to come over to us, held her hand, and she gave the most amazing, heart-felt, faithful, loving prayer that just made my morning. It really strengthened me and I felt such peace. All the Catholics I work with wouldn’t even consider such an action. Yet my Protestant co-workers regularly pray like that. It’s impressive and their faith is strong. They may not have all the theological points down and they don’t have sacramental interaction like Catholics but good grief they’re loyal to God, faithful, and just full of joy. I like that. I’m just not willing to marginalize these folks and cast them aside as being “popes unto themselves” and “prideful because they won’t come to Rome!” because most of these good people don’t ponder these issues each day, as you said! Most people, let’s say Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, don’t get up each day and actively ponder the Church of Rome and consider the pope the Whore of Babylon. In fact, they rarely think about Catholicism, just their own faith life. That’s my experience. So the venom directed at them and the chiding that those poor slobs on have a bible and no tradition and magisterium, that’s off my radar. I concur with your sentiments, Tomarin!
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