Anglican bishop lays mitre, crozier at our lady?s feet as he leaves for ordinariate [ewtn]

[GKC]

Just an update because I know you care, Johnny. I got a painful phone call today at 6pm, just an hour and a half after visiting my grandma, that she died. I broke apart in tears on the phone, man. As ready for it as I’ve thought I was, braced and prepared, it is just a raw feeling knowing in this life I’ll never see her again.

We have a very, very small family. It’s basically me, my parents, and my grandma and grandpa. Tiny family. Of course then there’s me and my wife and three kids. But growing up it was always just those four adults in my life. This felt like an atom bomb tonight.

Sorry, Gurney.

Prayers.

GKC

 

[JohnnyReb]

You and your family are in my prayers. So sorry to hear that. Such a shame,

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks, guys. We’re coordinating the funeral right now. Father Rod is going to do the funeral. He’s the best priest they have at St. Mary’s IMO. I woke up this morning with the reality that I’ll never see her in this life again and it was sobering. Tough morning. I appreciate everyone’s kind words and encouragement. Prayers are definitely helpful. My grandma’s name was Mary Louise but she went by “Mary Lou”

 

[Hesychios]

Prayers for Mary Lou …

Memory eternal!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks, Michael,

We went to daily Mass for her, lit a candle that Father Rod blessed, then my daughter, Veronica, and I prayed for her inside the perpetual Adoration Chapel. It was all very comforting. Knowing that she is receiving prayers for people on here at CAF, some of my best friends like you, is such a comfort as well.

God bless you, brother

Prayers for Mary Lou …

Memory eternal!

 

[prodromos]

I did not “acknowledge” it. I simply said that three divorces is probably uncommon. That is not an acknowledgment by any stretch. I still maintain it’s probably uncommon. That’s not the problem. The problem is that it’s possible.

No it is not possible. If someone divorces after remarrying, they would not be permitted to remarry again because they have demonstrated a pattern of failure which would more than likely continue in any subsequent marriage.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve read it on numerous Orthodox websites and heard it umpteen times from knowledgable Orthodox Christians in here. I honestly could care less as I would not and will not convert to Orthodoxy. I don’t buy the theological opinions and am not attracted to it. I only go on what I read, what I hear, and I hear it a lot. If you are correct, which is fine by me (I’m no fan of divorce), then the lesson I learn here is that there are A LOT of Orthodox who are not well-educated or catechecized in their faith to be spreading this around even on some excellent websites!

No it is not possible. If someone divorces after remarrying, they would not be permitted to remarry again because they have demonstrated a pattern of failure which would more than likely continue in any subsequent marriage.

 

[prodromos]

I’ve read it on numerous Orthodox websites and heard it umpteen times from knowledgable Orthodox Christians in here.

If the quote you gave earlier is any indication, it seems likely a misinterpretation on your part

Taken from an Orthodoxy website: Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth.
I thought I had explained to you the circumstances under which second and third marriages could occur and hoped that you understood that “remarriage” is not synonymous with “divorce” as you seem to insist. The quote from the website you gave above does not even mention divorce, you just seem to slot it in there every time you see the word remarriage. I don’t particularly care if this is what you actually believe is the case but you have been repeatedly told that it is a gross misrepresentation of Orthodoxy. Please cease posting “three divorces”. Such does not exist in the Orthodox Church.

BTW, my brother is Anglican and recently remarried after a divorce. Both he hand his new wife (also divorced) are now literally blooming in a healthy God centred relationship. Both their prior marriages were spiritually destructive (adultery and abandonment)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I fail to see why you post this if you “don’t particularly care what I actually believe.” I will do no such thing. You can play the semantics thing with re-marriage and divorce. I could equally care less, pro. This thread isn’t even about Orthodoxy but somehow every thread that Orthodox get involved in turn to Orthodox threads I said the filioque extra loud at Mass today by the way

If the quote you gave earlier is any indication, it seems likely a misinterpretation on your part
I thought I had explained to you the circumstances under which second and third marriages could occur and hoped that you understood that “remarriage” is not synonymous with “divorce” as you seem to insist. The quote from the website you gave above does not even mention divorce, you just seem to slot it in there every time you see the word remarriage. I don’t particularly care if this is what you actually believe is the case but you have been repeatedly told that it is a gross misrepresentation of Orthodoxy. Please cease posting “three divorces”. Such does not exist in the Orthodox Church.

BTW, my brother is Anglican and recently remarried after a divorce. Both he hand his new wife (also divorced) are now literally blooming in a healthy God centred relationship. Both their prior marriages were spiritually destructive (adultery and abandonment)

 

[prodromos]

I fail to see why you post this if you “don’t particularly care what I actually believe.”

You may believe what you want. That is none of my concern. When you continue to misrepresent the Orthodox faith despite our corrections, that concerns me.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Scott,

You can play the semantics thing with re-marriage and divorce. I could equally care less, pro.

I am reluctantly going to have to step in here once again.

You are wrong.

This is not at all a question of semantics. If anything it could be a question of logic.

There is a big difference between one divorce (as a possibility) and three. Even the so-called ‘proof’ you posted supports Harpazo, Prodromos and myself (all three of us have corrected you on this thread alone) over anything you posted here and elsewhere. You are confused. I am convinced no Orthodox ever told you that the Orthodox allow ‘three divorces’ as you maintain, but that you misunderstood.

One thing is not three things, one potential (however unlikely and undesirable) thing is not three potential things.

I have to wonder why you persist in imagining this error, and why you insist upon spreading it.

Peace and good things to you, my brother.
Michael

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks for letting me believe what I want, Pro. I think I’ll take you up on that. Sorry to concern you so much. You folks misrepresent the papacy as a dictatorship in here constantly, too, so I guess we’re all not representin’ too well

You may believe what you want. That is none of my concern. When you continue to misrepresent the Orthodox faith despite our corrections, that concerns me.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Michael,

You’ve never seemed reluctant to challenge my thinking on anything so I doubt that, brother. In any case, that’s perfectly fine. I believe you are wrong based on everything I read and if Harpazo, Prodromos, and yourself disagree in spades, that’s perfectly fine. I have read about divorce in my book, “Marriage, an Orthodox Perspective” by the late John Meyendorff, a brilliant Orthodox mind. I disagree with him on many things but respect him. He speaks on this issue in his book about the Orthodox view on divorce and it seems highly-illogical to me. And take a look at what this website has to say, from the Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain…

Certainly Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as in principle lifelong and indissoluble, and it condemns the breakdown of marriage as a sin and an evil. But while condemning the sin, the Church still desires to help the sinners and to allow them a second chance. When, therefore, a marriage has entirely ceased to be a reality, the Orthodox Church does not insist on the preservation of a legal fiction. Divorce is seen as an exceptional but necessary concession to human sin; it is an act of oikonomia (‘economy’ or dispensation) and of philanthropia (loving kindness). Yet although assisting men and women to rise again after a fall, the Orthodox Church knows that a second alliance can never be the same as the first; and so in the service for a second marriage several of the joyful ceremonies are omitted, and replaced by penitential prayers.

So essentially the Orthodox, acting like Moses, weaken and grant divorces, up to three, as is stated all over the place (despite your unwillingness to accept it) because humans are weak and sinful and they placate and give in. I don’t respect that view. And yet Meyendorff talks about marriage thusly:

(of course he has to do like most Orthodox usually do, make the Catholics sound like legalists that have little faith or charity or common sense)

…marriage is a sacrament conferred upon the partners in the Body of the Church through the priest’s blessing; that is, as any sacrament, it pertains to the eternal life in the Kingdom of God; and that it is, therefore, not dissolved by the death of one of the partners, but creates between them—if they so wish and if “it is given to them” an eternal bond.
That, as sacrament, marriage is not a magical act but a gift of grace. The partners, being human, may have made a mistake in soliciting the grace of marriage when they were not ready for it or they may prove to be unable to make that grace fructify. In those cases the Church may admit the fact that the grace was not “received,” tolerate separation and allow remarriage. --Marriage and Divorce An Orthodox Perspective by Meyendorff

He seems to contradict himself in that marriage is almost eternal and a link between the partners seems indissoluable and yet on the other hand, it is dissolved, often for pretty thin reasons…

So what Meyendorff does, as he trashes the Catholics as “legalistic,” “magical” in their views, contractually-driven, and “legal obligation” laden, is be legalistic himself. He makes the Orthodox view of marriage as a concession to human weakness, a new Moses in the desert. He also makes the Orthodox Church focus just on the grace of the “marriage” and if the grace isn’t being ‘received’ well then it can turn off like a spicket and one can start over. He ignores what Our Lord said about divorce and the reasons divorce can be had on exceptionally rare occasions–that divorce is allowed for unchastity, adultery, etc. The Orthodox are stretching it to be that the couple isn’t making their “grace fructify” or come to fruition. Or Meyendorff is saying they might have just “made a mistake” in choosing each other not being ready. Boy that doesn’t sound remotely like what Our Lord says or what Paul says. In fact, Paul says “let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband and that a husband should not divorce his wife” I Corinthians 6: 10-11

I have read multiple times an Orthodox expression on divorce: “The Church blesses the first marriage, performs the second, tolerates the third, and forbids the fourth”. I have read that on a plethora of Orthodox websites. So either they’re wrong OR the Orthodox Church cannot agree on what they believe about divorce and remarriage and they don’t have the cohesion and unity they claim to have.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

continued reply to Hesychios (Michael)

I will say, out of intellectual honesty, that from what I have read the Orthodox have very LOW divorce rates. Good for them! That is a great thing to rejoice about. But we’re not talking about the amount of Orthodox divorces, but the fact that the Orthodox DO allow for three divorces. Common? No. Possible. YES! And I’ve quoted sources saying this. I will again…

***Orthodox canon law can permit a second and even a third marriage “in economia”, but strictly forbids a fourth. In theory divorce is only recognized in the case of adultery, but in practise is also recognised in light of other reasons. There is a list of causes of divorce acceptable to the Orthodox Church. In practise the bishops sometimes apply “economia” in a liberal way. By the way, divorce and remarriage are only permitted in the context of “economia”, that is, out of pastoral care, out of understanding for weakness. A second or third marriage will always be a deviation from the “ideal and unique marriage”, but often a fresh opportunity to correct a mistake”. ***–the Orthodox Research Institute orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/athenagoras_remarriage.htm

You say you cannot fathom why I persist in spreading an error. I’m not spreading error. I’m quoting your own Orthodox folks in literature and in their websites. Sorry if repeating what your brethren teaches is painful to you, Michael. I truly am. As to speculating about my motivations, sadly, I have wondered your motivation in here as well? May God bless you and yours. Happy New Year.

Hi Scott,

I am reluctantly going to have to step in here once again.

You are wrong.

This is not at all a question of semantics. If anything it could be a question of logic.

There is a big difference between one divorce (as a possibility) and three. Even the so-called ‘proof’ you posted supports Harpazo, Prodromos and myself (all three of us have corrected you on this thread alone) over anything you posted here and elsewhere. You are confused. I am convinced no Orthodox ever told you that the Orthodox allow ‘three divorces’ as you maintain, but that you misunderstood.

One thing is not three things, one potential (however unlikely and undesirable) thing is not three potential things.

I have to wonder why you persist in imagining this error, and why you insist upon spreading it.

Peace and good things to you, my brother.
Michael

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It would be nice if we could get back to the OP and off the Orthodox divorce topic. I myself plan to ignore any more posts on that topic as I’m not really interested in it, for one thing, I don’t plan on becoming Orthodox so it isn’t a factor, this thread was about Anglicanism and ordinariates/a FIF bishop going over to the Catholic Church, and we can agree to disagree about divorces. I will check back on this thread in a few days if and when it returns to topic. For now I plan to unsubscribe. Happy New Year everyone!

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Scott,

I have read multiple times an Orthodox expression on divorce: "The Church blesses the first marriage, performs the second, tolerates the third, and forbids the fourth.

One possible remarriage if there is a death (something other churches allow without limits) - and separately potentially a remarriage if there is a divorce, not intended for both persons, but for the victim. This last is not a right but a dispensation and is not given routinely but after investigation.

Orthodox do not anull the sacraments, but there are some times when a little forgiveness and understanding can help people put their lives back together, and plugged into the sacramental life of the church, especially helpful when someone has been victimized or abandoned. So it seems to me the abandoned spouse is sometimes given the same consideration a widow/widower might get.

The Orthodox were brought into this thread because non-Orthodox (Anglicans I suppose) brought Orthodoxy up. The first Orthodox post in this thread was to correct your error.

The simple way to avoid this kind of situation is to not bring Orthodoxy up in your discussions. I for one have had enough of this discussion to last a lifetime and I am not concerned if Anglicans become Roman Catholics or if Roman Catholics become Anglicans, they each could do much worse.

 

[GKC]

It would be nice if we could get back to the OP and off the Orthodox divorce topic. I myself plan to ignore any more posts on that topic as I’m not really interested in it, for one thing, I don’t plan on becoming Orthodox so it isn’t a factor, this thread was about Anglicanism and ordinariates/a FIF bishop going over to the Catholic Church, and we can agree to disagree about divorces. I will check back on this thread in a few days if and when it returns to topic. For now I plan to unsubscribe. Happy New Year everyone!

So what do you plan on … Oh.

Never mind.

GKC

 

[prodromos]

So essentially the Orthodox, acting like Moses, weaken and grant divorces, up to three, as is stated all over the place (despite your unwillingness to accept it)

You have yet to provide a single source which states the Church permits three divorces. So far all you have given is your assumption that remarriage must have been preceded by divorce, something which has not been stated by a single one of your sources.
As members of the Orthodox Church we have told you repeatedly what the correct interpretation of those sources is regarding divorce yet you insist that only you (who are not Orthodox) knows how this should be understood by the Orthodox. How ludicrous!

For someone as articulate as yourself you are mind bogglingly obstinant in persisting in your error.

 

[dvdjs]

As members of the Orthodox Church we have told you repeatedly what the correct interpretation of those sources is regarding divorce yet you insist that only you (who are not Orthodox) knows how this should be understood by the Orthodox. How ludicrous!
.

The problem is that it is has been shown time and time again that, on this subject, we get spin from Orthodox.

Here’s one example:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7290971&postcount=371

I responded with this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7291432&postcount=382
But this is better:
goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/registry/

Here is another example:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7310499&postcount=439

These errors of simple fact and errors of interpretation undermine the credibility of posters who make them. It is odd, then, that one should think it ludicrous not to be accepted at face value. You have presented no canon or even an investigation of “divorce decrees” that preclude the obvious interpretation of gurneyhalleck1. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it.

Oh, and while we are on the subject of spin:

Orthodox do not anull the sacraments

There are ecclesiastical annulments in Orthodoxy. I presume however, that Orthodox, like Catholics, do not annul sacraments.

 

[prodromos]

You have presented no canon or even an investigation of “divorce decrees” that preclude the obvious interpretation of gurneyhalleck1. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it.

Please present actual evidence that the Orthodox Church permits remarriage after a second divorce instead of claiming that it could happen. We have no ecclesiastical canons forbidding ordination of women to the priesthood, yet I don’t see anyone claiming that such a thing is a possibility, nor rejecting Orthodoxy for that reason (not that gurneyhalleck1 would be likely to pick on that particular issue)