Anglican Catholic Church?

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PRmerger said:
How do you know this, KjetilK?

Are you certain that this hasn’t been requested and the OCA said, “You can take your request and your papal supremacy and vamoose”?
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Well, then by all means provide us with the document that say so. But until that happens, quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Per_Crucem said:
However, that is because from the Latin Church’s perspective, the Orthodox have apostolic succession and are, therefore, Catholic in that respect. That isn’t true of any Protestant communion, with the exception of a few Anglican bishops here and there.
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Yes, I agree completely. That is the view of the Roman Catholic Church. They say that catholicity is found where there is apostolic succession, and where the catholic and apostolic faith is preserved. But read carefully, because that is not what I was disagreeing with. According to PRmerger, Dave Armstrong claims that the notion of ‘non-Roman’ or ‘Non-papal’ Catholics is ridiculous. If that were so, then the Orthodox wouldn’t be Catholic either.
 
KjetilK said:
Well, then by all means provide us with the document that say so.
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Perhaps you might want to retract your statement, Kj.

Was it not you who made this assertion?
KjetilK said:
Yet, the Roman Catholic Church has never questioned the Orthodox churches when they self-identify as Catholic.
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So, yes, it was indeed you who proclaimed this assertion. :yup:

I asked how you know this.

Could you please answer that question.

And also back up your assertion.
 
KjetilK said:
But until that happens, quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
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🙂

It seems that you are refuting your own position?

You asserted something with no grounds.

So now you are giving me permission to deny its truth?

Yep. That’s exactly right. 👍

[SIGN]quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur[/SIGN]
 
PRmerger said:
Absolutely it is what we’re discussing, Novo.

I maintain that it is absurd for any church to declare itself to be Catholic when it is not subject to the Roman pontiff.

There is no such thing as a group of Catholics who are not subject to the Bishop of Rome.

That’s just wishful thinking and gaga, lala nonsense.
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This is all assertion, not argument.
I have never heard the CC declaring itself to be “the Orthodox Church” and “the Evangelical Church”.
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Can you please point me to some documents which profess this?
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She does so implicitly, in claiming to be the one, true church! Can there be a one, true church which isn’t the orthodox church? The church of the Gospel?
 
Novocastrian said:
This is all assertion, not argument.
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No more so than Lutherans et al asserting that they are Catholics.


She does so implicitly, in claiming to be the one, true church! Can there be a one, true church which isn’t the orthodox church? The church of the Gospel?
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Of course we are the orthodox Church! And the evangelical Church!

We are, however, not the Orthodox Church, nor the Evangelical Church, and I defy you to produce any document from our magisterium which limns us in that manner.

We don’t claim something absurd for ourselves, Novo.
 
PRmerger said:
No more so than Lutherans et al asserting that they are Catholics.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ohb3w7GL1qa6ipw.gif
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A gif isn’t an argument either…
Of course we are the orthodox Church! And the evangelical Church!
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We are, however, not the Orthodox Church, nor the Evangelical Church, and I defy you to produce any document from our magisterium which limns us in that manner.
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We don’t claim something absurd for ourselves, Novo.
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We’ve argued around this point before, so I’ll just summarise.

What you’ve written above simply doesn’t matter. (1) Augustine doesn’t write his argument with capital, upper-case letters to denote proper nouns, so your distinction isn’t hugely meaningful. (2) Lutherans or Anglicans often just claim to be Catholic (adj.), rather than the Catholic Church (pr.n). Seems to be the same move you’re making!
 
Novocastrian said:
A gif isn’t an argument either…
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You are correct.

A gif is nothing more than an animated smilie. 🙂

Is there anyone here who is asserting that smilies are arguments?

'Cause that would be…


We’ve argued around this point before, so I’ll just summarise.
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What you’ve written above simply doesn’t matter. (1) Augustine doesn’t write his argument with capital, upper-case letters to denote proper nouns, so your distinction isn’t hugely meaningful. (2) Lutherans or Anglicans often just claim to be Catholic (adj.), rather than the Catholic Church (pr.n). Seems to be the same move you’re making!
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If that’s what Lutherans or Anglicans are asserting–that they’re catholic, and not Catholic–, then have at it, friends!

Just don’t claim to be part of my Church–the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church–and claim that they are independent of the jurisdiction of the Holy Father.

There is no subset of Catholics who get to be part of my Church yet state, “Hey, I don’t have a vicar who is my Papa!”
 
PRmerger said:
If that’s what Lutherans or Anglicans are asserting–that they’re catholic, and not Catholic–, then have at it, friends!

Just don’t claim to be part of my Church–the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church–and claim that they are independent of the jurisdiction of the Holy Father.

There is no subset of Catholics who get to be part of my Church yet state, “Hey, I don’t have a vicar who is my Papa!”
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That we are part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church is exactly what we do claim.

And, before we get the tired old response, this doesn’t have to be phrased in terms of the discredited ‘Branch’ Theory.
 
Novocastrian said:
That we are part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church is exactly what we do claim.

And, before we get the tired old response, this doesn’t have to be phrased in terms of the discredited ‘Branch’ Theory.
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Yep.

GKC
 
Novocastrian said:
That we are part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church is exactly what we do claim.

And, before we get the tired old response, this doesn’t have to be phrased in terms of the discredited ‘Branch’ Theory.
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I don’t know what the “tired old response” is but the *Catholic *response is: yes, you are part of my Church, just imperfectly joined to it.
 
PRmerger said:
I don’t know what the “tired old response” is but the *Catholic *response is: yes, you are part of my Church, just imperfectly joined to it.
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"My church? or Christ’s church?

:getholy:

Blessings!

Rita
 
spedteacherita said:
"My church? or Christ’s church?

:getholy:

Blessings!

Rita
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Well, Rita, they are one and the same!

Imagine if you said to a Muslim, “Let me get my Bible” and he responded, '*Your *Bible? Or God’s Bible?"

You would answer: they are one and the same

would you not?

Or imagine if you said, “Here is my daughter” and someone said, “She’s *your *daughter? I thought she was God’s?”

What would you say?
 
PRmerger said:
Excellent. Then we are agreed.

And then when your church professes religious assent to the vicar of Christ, you can call yourselves Catholic as well! 🙂
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The Holy Ghost? Well, we do our best…
 
Novocastrian said:
The Holy Ghost? Well, we do our best…
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Is that what your church teaches? That the Holy Ghost is the vicar of Christ?

Can you point me to where your church teaches this, and from whence this teaching comes? Is it found in Scripture?
 
PRmerger said:
Is that what your church teaches? That the Holy Ghost is the vicar of Christ?

Can you point me to where your church teaches this, and from whence this teaching comes? Is it found in Scripture?
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I was really making a joke, but one grounded in John 14.
 
PRmerger said:
Does your church teach that the Holy Spirit is the representative of Christ here on earth? Yes or no?
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No more or less than yours does. That He is

the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceedeth from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,
who spake by the prophets.
 
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