Anglican Catholic Church?

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LutheranScholar said:
This, of course, would be the Lutheran response… Augsburg Confession, Article 21 :
AC XXI: Invocation of the Saints

Our churches teach that we are to remember the history of the saints so that our faith may be strengthened when we see how they experienced grace and how they were sustained by faith. Even more, their good works are to be an example for us, each of us in his own calling. Accordingly, his Imperial Majesty may follow the example of David [2 Samuel] in waging war to drive the Muslim invaders from our land. For both are kings.

However, it cannot be proved from the Scriptures that we must call on the saints or seek their help. “For there is one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus” [1 Timothy 2:5], who is the only Savior, the only high priest, advocate, and intercessor before God [Romans 8:34]. He alone is to be prayed to. He has promised that He will hear our prayer [John 14:14]. The worship that He approves above all other is this: That we call on Him in all afflictions. “If anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father” [1 John 2:1].
sothl.com/2014/07/20/augsburg-confession-article-21/
That comes directly from that Confession that most directly defines a Lutheran.
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Of course the Catholic Church does not teach that “we must call on the saints or seek their help” but rather, two councils approved the salutory custom of invoking the faithful departed, one before and another after the Augsburg Confession of 25 June 1530:


  1. *]The Council of Vienne (1311–1312), states that they “assist us by their suffrages.”
    *] The Council of Trent Session XXV (1563):

    “the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ”

    The Church has formally approved the practice in the decree of Pope Leo XIII ( Acta Sanctae Sedis, 1889-90, p. 743) granting an indulgence for any prayer in which the intercession of the faithful departed is petitioned.
 
Vico said:
Of course the Catholic Church does not teach that “we must call on the saints or seek their help” but rather, two councils approved the salutory custom of invoking the faithful departed, one before and another after the Augsburg Confession of 25 June 1530:


  1. *]The Council of Vienne (1311–1312), states that they “assist us by their suffrages.”
    *] The Council of Trent Session XXV (1563):

    “the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ”

    The Church has formally approved the practice in the decree of Pope Leo XIII ( Acta Sanctae Sedis, 1889-90, p. 743) granting an indulgence for any prayer in which the intercession of the faithful departed is petitioned.
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  1. This would be the Lutheran response: bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php. This could go on forever. I thank JonNC for that particular link from this particular thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=478966. Bear in mind, for the purposes of this thread, that Lutherans have their own version of sacred tradition that they hold quite as dearly as Catholics would hold to theirs. Also bear in mind that a lot of the major questions were already answered for Confessional Lutherans by 1580.
 
LutheranScholar said:
This would be the Lutheran response: bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php. This could go on forever. I thank JonNC for that particular link from this particular thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=478966. Bear in mind, for the purposes of this thread, that Lutherans have their own version of sacred tradition that they hold quite as dearly as Catholics would hold to theirs. Also bear in mind that a lot of the major questions were already answered for Confessional Lutherans by 1580.
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It really should be in another thread since it does not address any of the three OP questions, which were all “No”:
  • Are these “Anglican Catholic”] Churches in full communion with the Holy See,
  • was it alright for her to receive sacraments there?
  • Also are the Anglican Catholics considered a sui juris particular church of the Western Rite?
The Anglican Ordinariate is part of the Latin Catholic Church sui iuris, but the “Anglican Catholic” Church is not. Western Rite includes Catholic liturical rites, different from the Latin (Roman) liturgical rite: Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Braga. Sui iuris is a term used in Catholic canon law and for western only refers to the Latin Catholic Church not liturgical rite.
 
Vico said:
It really should be in another thread since it does not address any of the three OP questions, which were all “No”:
  • Are these “Anglican Catholic”] Churches in full communion with the Holy See,
  • was it alright for her to receive sacraments there?
  • Also are the Anglican Catholics considered a sui juris particular church of the Western Rite?
The Anglican Ordinariate is part of the Latin Catholic Church sui iuris, but the “Anglican Catholic” Church is not. Western Rite includes Catholic liturical rites, different from the Latin (Roman) liturgical rite: Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Braga. Sui iuris is a term used in Catholic canon law and for western only refers to the Latin Catholic Church not liturgical rite.
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Quite right. The Anglican Catholics are their own church body with their own heritage, which was originally among the Anglican Communion, but has now split. anglicancatholic.org/about-the-church
 
Yes, the internet does bring out these hardline positions. But CAF also brings out information that is new to me. Yes, there are many Lutheran and Episcopal churches in my city. But I don’t know anyone from there, at least not anyone who discusses their personal faith, or their denomination’s positions. I wish we had more Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc posting on CAF. I seem to find the same few people, no matter what the topic.

Yesterday I was over on CAF’s Gardening Forum. GKC was explaining in tedious detail the War of the Roses proves roses are authentically Catholic even when they are transplanted apart from the Romish garden, at least in English speaking countries. Topper was posting about how tulips must be planted with a pneumatic drill hammer, and garden snakes can (must) be eradicated with napalm. JonNC was posting how Sola Manura is not narrow like you think it means. Fertilization is informed also by lessons from that first garden, as clarified by Luther (whose gardening they respect but are not bound to, and people should quit saying Lutherans worship his gardening skills). Their minds are on another man, another garden. Then Commenter posted a light, frothy analogy about gardening is life, his posts totally inapplicable and ignored by the thread. He went on to make weak puns about how everyone should be nice instead of think, but you all know his niceness is a clever disguise to cover up his agenda to spread papal thought control, the cold grip of the Magisterium.

Happy Easter!
 
commenter said:
Yes, the internet does bring out these hardline positions. But CAF also brings out information that is new to me. Yes, there are many Lutheran and Episcopal churches in my city. But I don’t know anyone from there, at least not anyone who discusses their personal faith, or their denomination’s positions. I wish we had more Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc posting on CAF. I seem to find the same few people, no matter what the topic.

Yesterday I was over on CAF’s Gardening Forum. GKC was explaining in tedious detail the War of the Roses proves roses are authentically Catholic even when they are transplanted apart from the Romish garden, at least in English speaking countries. Topper was posting about how tulips must be planted with a pneumatic drill hammer, and garden snakes can (must) be eradicated with napalm. JonNC was posting how Sola Manura is not narrow like you think it means. Fertilization is informed also by lessons from that first garden, as clarified by Luther (whose gardening they respect but are not bound to, and people should quit saying Lutherans worship his gardening skills). Their minds are on another man, another garden. Then Commenter posted a light, frothy analogy about gardening is life, his posts totally inapplicable and ignored by the thread. He went on to make weak puns about how everyone should be nice instead of think, but you all know his niceness is a clever disguise to cover up his agenda to spread papal thought control, the cold grip of the Magisterium.

Happy Easter!
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😃 Good one! Happy Easter, by the way. 👍
 
commenter said:
Yes, the internet does bring out these hardline positions. But CAF also brings out information that is new to me. Yes, there are many Lutheran and Episcopal churches in my city. But I don’t know anyone from there, at least not anyone who discusses their personal faith, or their denomination’s positions. I wish we had more Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc posting on CAF. I seem to find the same few people, no matter what the topic.

Yesterday I was over on CAF’s Gardening Forum. GKC was explaining in tedious detail the War of the Roses proves roses are authentically Catholic even when they are transplanted apart from the Romish garden, at least in English speaking countries. Topper was posting about how tulips must be planted with a pneumatic drill hammer, and garden snakes can (must) be eradicated with napalm. JonNC was posting how Sola Manura is not narrow like you think it means. Fertilization is informed also by lessons from that first garden, as clarified by Luther (whose gardening they respect but are not bound to, and people should quit saying Lutherans worship his gardening skills). Their minds are on another man, another garden. Then Commenter posted a light, frothy analogy about gardening is life, his posts totally inapplicable and ignored by the thread. He went on to make weak puns about how everyone should be nice instead of think, but you all know his niceness is a clever disguise to cover up his agenda to spread papal thought control, the cold grip of the Magisterium.

Happy Easter!
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Tedious is le mot juste, be the subject what it may,

And then a man named Chesterton
Got up and played with water,
He seemed to say that principles
Were nice and led to slaughter
And how we always compromised
And how we didn’t orter.

GKC
 
commenter said:
Yes, the internet does bring out these hardline positions. But CAF also brings out information that is new to me. Yes, there are many Lutheran and Episcopal churches in my city. But I don’t know anyone from there, at least not anyone who discusses their personal faith, or their denomination’s positions. I wish we had more Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc posting on CAF. I seem to find the same few people, no matter what the topic.

Yesterday I was over on CAF’s Gardening Forum. GKC was explaining in tedious detail the War of the Roses proves roses are authentically Catholic even when they are transplanted apart from the Romish garden, at least in English speaking countries. Topper was posting about how tulips must be planted with a pneumatic drill hammer, and garden snakes can (must) be eradicated with napalm. JonNC was posting how Sola Manura is not narrow like you think it means. Fertilization is informed also by lessons from that first garden, as clarified by Luther (whose gardening they respect but are not bound to, and people should quit saying Lutherans worship his gardening skills). Their minds are on another man, another garden. Then Commenter posted a light, frothy analogy about gardening is life, his posts totally inapplicable and ignored by the thread. He went on to make weak puns about how everyone should be nice instead of think, but you all know his niceness is a clever disguise to cover up his agenda to spread papal thought control, the cold grip of the Magisterium.

Happy Easter!
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I did like the humorous way you put it, but then I went back and contemplated your words beyond the initial " ha, ha." You’re right, it would be awesome if we had more magisterial and radical Protestants to offer their own points of view. theopedia.com/Radical_Reformation magisterialreformers.blogspot.com/
To see the passion for the Faith shared by the posters, Catholic and Protestant ( and Orthodox) alike and their whole hearted defense of their views is really heart- warming.
 
LutheranScholar said:
I did like the humorous way you put it, but then I went back and contemplated your words beyond the initial " ha, ha." You’re right, it would be awesome if we had more magisterial and radical Protestants to offer their own points of view. theopedia.com/Radical_Reformation magisterialreformers.blogspot.com/
To see the passion for the Faith shared by the posters, Catholic and Protestant ( and Orthodox) alike and their whole hearted defense of their views is really heart- warming.
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Put out a call for Indifferently. He might serve your purpose.

GKCC
 
LutheranScholar said:
I did like the humorous way you put it, but then I went back and contemplated your words beyond the initial " ha, ha." You’re right, it would be awesome if we had more magisterial and radical Protestants to offer their own points of view. theopedia.com/Radical_Reformation magisterialreformers.blogspot.com/
To see the passion for the Faith shared by the posters, Catholic and Protestant ( and Orthodox) alike and their whole hearted defense of their views is really heart- warming.
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You wouldn’t like me to try my hand at some magisterial and radical Unbelieverism, I suppose? No? No, I thought not. Oh dear, I’ll just have to keep on being well behaved, then. It’s a bit of a pain, though.
 
GKC said:
Put out a call for Indifferently. He might serve your purpose.

GKCC
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I’m sure you know the old phrase that " if you stay seated in one place, you’ll meet everybody in the world." I like Indifferently’s posts, too, by the way. My purpose here is to learn as much as possible, maybe share a Lutheran POV ( thus joining the ranks of Lutherans far better grounded and experienced in propagating and defending their faith than I am). Obviously, I’m not above engaging in polemics if I feel it’s necessary, but I prefer discussion and consensus to open net conflict. I come from a family of debaters and coffee drinkers and the more interesting the conversation, the better. CAF is great for not only presenting the Catholic point of view, but for encouraging us Protestants to look back, research and ponder why believe what we do, so we can better present our points of view. At 498 years of age, we are Christianity’s youngest expression, although we hold to certain ideals and views that predate the Reformation. Yes, sola Scriptura and sola fide are uniquely Protestant expressions of faith, perhaps brought about by Renaissance ideals ( maybe we should start a thread comparing the Renaissance to the Reformation?) and given expression in various forms in the Protestant churches of today.
 
Picky_Picky said:
You wouldn’t like me to try my hand at some magisterial and radical Unbelieverism, I suppose? No? No, I thought not. Oh dear, I’ll just have to keep on being well behaved, then. It’s a bit of a pain, though.
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Why not? I mean, why not speak of your own viewpoints? I don’t see but they would add a different perspective.
 
LutheranScholar said:
I’m sure you know the old phrase that " if you stay seated in one place, you’ll meet everybody in the world." I like Indifferently’s posts, too, by the way. My purpose here is to learn as much as possible, maybe share a Lutheran POV ( thus joining the ranks of Lutherans far better grounded and experienced in propagating and defending their faith than I am). Obviously, I’m not above engaging in polemics if I feel it’s necessary, but I prefer discussion and consensus to open net conflict. I come from a family of debaters and coffee drinkers and the more interesting the conversation, the better. CAF is great for not only presenting the Catholic point of view, but for encouraging us Protestants to look back, research and ponder why believe what we do, so we can better present our points of view. At 498 years of age, we are Christianity’s youngest expression, although we hold to certain ideals and views that predate the Reformation. Yes, sola Scriptura and sola fide are uniquely Protestant expressions of faith, perhaps brought about by Renaissance ideals ( maybe we should start a thread comparing the Renaissance to the Reformation?) and given expression in various forms in the Protestant churches of today.
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I rarely debate, myself. I expound, expostulate, and explain. Often in tedious detail. On subjects upon which I am knowledgeable. IMO. I started posting, around 18 years ago, to explain Anglicanism to some sincere but befuddled folk, on a now defunct board. That’s expanded, but the principle is the same.

GKC
 
Picky_Picky said:
Lawks, thank 'ee zir. Just ineffective Englshness, probably. And observing others, mate.
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From my American experience, I can at least say that the English are probably one of the most courteous people one could ever have the pleasure to meet and I’ve had some of my most interesting conversations with those of English heredity and nationality. :tiphat: A pleasure to make your acquaintance, sir.
 
LutheranScholar said:
From my American experience, I can at least say that the English are probably one of the most courteous people one could ever have the pleasure to meet and I’ve had some of my most interesting conversations with those of English heredity and nationality. :tiphat: A pleasure to make your acquaintance, sir.
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Waddya mean, “probably”?

And yours, sir.
 
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