Anglican Church Bishops Endorse Efforts to Seek Intercommunion with Catholic Church

[E.E.N.S]

proud2bcatholic:

My broad vision is to see the end of the Reformation of the 16th century. Archbishop Hepworth said if Christians truly believe in the notion of an undivided Church, they ought to discover what it takes to find unity with both East and West and “be liberated from everything that stops it.”

Amen, amen, AMEN!!!

Pray for unity (Christ did.)

 

[E.E.N.S]

proud2bcatholic:

It would definitely be nice to add 400,000 more traditional minded Catholics to the flock.

It would be a glorious day indeed!

 

[David_Zampino]

GKC:

Greetings, David Zampino,

Indeed, Fr. Leonard is not. It is very common to find either Old Catholic (the real thing) or PNCC lines in many Anglican bishops’/clergy’s backgrounds. My own rector was ordained by a traditional Anglican bishop, himself consecrated by an ECUSA bishop who was consecrated by a PNCC bishop. It happens all the time. Indeed, the idea of receiving the TAC clergy *sub conditione * has been a part of these talks all along. I’m dubious about it happening, but you never know. There are loop holes in Apostolicae Curae.

And how are you, my friend?

GKC

I am very well, my friend. Somehow, I suspect that I know you!!!

I missed you at my hobbit party! Gifts for all and sundry?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

David Zampino:

I think that you will discover that the Traditional Anglican Communion derives their Apostolic Succession from Polish National Catholic Church bishops and/or Old Catholic bishops whose “pedigree” may well be legitimate. This was the case with Dr. Graham Leonard, the former Anglican Bishop of London. His apostolic succession was deemed to have been regular enough to warrent a “conditional” ordination when he converted, rather than an “absolute” ordination. He is not the only former Anglican bishop to fall into this category.

.

Okay, they may have a valid priesthood

But that does not change the fact that intercommunion is not reunion or entering into communion.

Seems many posters here do not understand that. Intercommunion is nothing more than Eucharistic sharing. That means they wish to partake of the Eucharist without having to follow the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

To share communion without being bound to the Magistirum of the Cathoic Church.

This will not create an Anglican Rite. I do not really see an Anglican Rite ever happening or if it does it will be like the other western rites and not have a Church of its own. There is no way that the Church will create another Western Church. To many politics in such a thing.

 

[David_Zampino]

ByzCath:

.

Okay, they may have a valid priesthood

But that does not change the fact that intercommunion is not reunion or entering into communion.

Agreed.

ByzCath:

Seems many posters here do not understand that. Intercommunion is nothing more than Eucharistic sharing. That means they wish to partake of the Eucharist without having to follow the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

To share communion without being bound to the Magistirum of the Cathoic Church.

This will not create an Anglican Rite. I do not really see an Anglican Rite ever happening or if it does it will be like the other western rites and not have a Church of its own. There is no way that the Church will create another Western Church. To many politics in such a thing.

Only time will tell. I, myself, suspect that the Anglican Usage will expand considerably, especially if the TAC continues to progress. Up until now (to my knowledge) no Anglican Use parish has gone into a second generation – but that doesn’t mean a precedent can’t be set. An Anglican Rite with it’s own hierarchy under Rome? I don’t see it – and I don’t think that the TAC expects it. But a greatly expanded usage? I do think so.

Blessings,

 

[Matt16_18]

proud2bcatholic:

"We have no doctrinal differences with Rome which would keep us from being in full communion with each other " said the Archbishop in a recent interview. "

This is wishful thinking on the part of Hepworth, (an obstinate schismatic who was ordained a priest in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church).

Of course the TAC has doctrinal differences with the Catholic Church - if they didn’t, they would be Catholics, not Protestants!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

David Zampino:

Only time will tell. I, myself, suspect that the Anglican Usage will expand considerably, especially if the TAC continues to progress. Up until now (to my knowledge) no Anglican Use parish has gone into a second generation – but that doesn’t mean a precedent can’t be set. An Anglican Rite with it’s own hierarchy under Rome? I don’t see it – and I don’t think that the TAC expects it. But a greatly expanded usage? I do think so.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

Some here think that there will be a Church with an Anglican Rite with its own bishops. That will never happen. But an expansion of the Anglican Usage? Yes I could see that happening.

 

[rjs1]

Matt16_18:

This is wishful thinking on the part of Hepworth, (an obstinate schismatic who was ordained a priest in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church).

Of course the TAC has doctrinal differences with the Catholic Church - if they didn’t, they would be Catholics, not Protestants!

I think your post is important as it helps keep us from simply responding in an emotional way to what could be a more difficult problem. The TAC must accept the full teachings and authority of the Catholic Church if any sort of union is to be possible.

 

[David_Zampino]

rjs1:

I think your post is important as it helps keep us from simply responding in an emotional way to what could be a more difficult problem. The TAC must accept the full teachings and authority of the Catholic Church if any sort of union is to be possible.

Andrew Rabel’s article from the July issue of “Inside the Vatican” is interesting on this point. Hepworth is quoted as saying “Unity with Peter is a biblical imperative” Hepworth also stated (concerning his own state as a former Roman Catholic priest) “If reunion is facilitated with Rome, I will immediately resign as Primate. Many of us have problematic histories.”

If he is willing to recognize his own “problematic history” to the extent that he would gladly resign if his resignation would facilitate reunion is, to me, a good sign.

 

[Matt16_18]

rjs1:

The TAC must accept the full teachings and authority of the Catholic Church if any sort of union is to be possible.

That is true. But part of this article is addressing the possibility of intercommunion between the Catholic Church and the TAC, which is not the same thing as the TAC seeking full communion with the Catholic Church.

Under certain circumstances, a Catholic can receive communion from a schismatic local particular church that has valid orders (e.g. the Polish National Church or the Greek Orthodox). But intercommunion is NOT possible with the TAC, because the TAC is a Protestant sect that lacks valid orders. The “Eucharist” of the TAC is merely a piece of bread, and that is not what a Catholic would receive in the PNC or in an Eastern Orthodox church or in an Oriental Orthodox church.

There are, of course, exceptions to the general rule of invalidity of the priesthood of the TAC, Hepworth himself being a prime example.

St. Thomas More, pray for us!

 

[David_Zampino]

Matt16_18:

That is true. But part of this article is addressing the possibility of intercommunion between the Catholic Church and the TAC, which is not the same thing as the TAC seeking full communion with the Catholic Church.

Under certain circumstances, a Catholic can receive communion from a schismatic local particular church that has valid orders (e.g. the Polish National Church or the Greek Orthodox). But intercommunion is NOT possible with the TAC, because the TAC is a Protestant sect that lacks valid orders. The “Eucharist” of the TAC is merely a piece of bread, and that is not what a Catholic would receive in the PNC or in an Eastern Orthodox church or in an Oriental Orthodox church.

I think that you will find that the bishops of the TAC hold their apostolic succession from the PNCC and/or certain traditional Old Catholic sources. Schismatic? Yes. Irregular? Yes. But valid? Quite likely. It will be the “Graham Leonard” case all over again.

 

[Matt16_18]

David Zampino:

I think that you will find that the bishops of the TAC hold their apostolic succession from the PNCC and/or certain traditional Old Catholic sources. Schismatic? Yes. Irregular? Yes. But valid? Quite likely. It will be the “Graham Leonard” case all over again.

It is true that there are a few priests in the TAC that are validly ordained. Cardinal Ratzinger had the responsibility of determining the validity of Anglican priests that wished to become Catholic priests. I am quite sure that as the pope, that he is well aware of the fact that there are a few priests in the TAC that may have received valid, though illicit, Sacraments of Ordination.

If the TAC ever does decide to be reconciled with the Catholic Church, the members of the TAC are going to have to receive all the Sacraments of Initiation, and not just the Sacrament of Baptism, just like any other Protestant that converts. The Anglican Use parishes within the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church is the model to which the TAC should be looking at, not pipe dreams of Rome recognizing the TAC as being something other than a Protestant sect like the Methodists, Lutherans or Southern Baptists.

 

[GKC]

Matt16_18:

It is true that there are a few priests in the TAC that are validly ordained. Cardinal Ratzinger had the responsibility of determining the validity of Anglican priests that wished to become Catholic priests. I am quite sure that as the pope, that he is well aware of the fact that there are a few priests in the TAC that may have received valid, though illicit, Sacraments of Ordination.

If the TAC ever does decide to be reconciled with the Catholic Church, the members of the TAC are going to have to receive all the Sacraments of Initiation, and not just the Sacrament of Baptism, just like any other Protestant that converts. The Anglican Use parishes within the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church is the model to which the TAC should be looking at, not pipe dreams of Rome recognizing the TAC as being something other than a Protestant sect like the Methodists, Lutherans or Southern Baptists.

How is that you know that the number is “a few”?

And the TAC members are going to require baptism? Odd.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Forest-Pine:

Yes, we have an Anglican USE, but when the pastors of those churches leave or die the lease is up and all reverts. I referred to a RITE, where they could always use the current model.

Amen. I would get me to this Mass pronto and never leave!

 

[Matt16_18]

GKC:

… the TAC members are going to require baptism?

I didn’t say that the baptism received by the members of the TAC is invalid. Even a pagan can validly baptize. The members of the TAC have received a valid baptism, but if they ever desire to come into full communion with the Catholic Church, they will have to receive the other two Sacraments of Initiation (Confirmation and the Holy Eucharist). Before they could receive these Sacraments of Inititation, they would need instruction in the faith, they would need to make a lifetime confession, and they would need to make a profession of the faith where they accept EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church teaches about faith and morals. No more birth control pills, no more divorce.

What are the odds that 400,000 members of the TAC are ever going to do that? I pray that it will happen, I want that to happen, but I am not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen while Hepworth “negotiates” with Rome. If an Anglican desires full communion with the Catholic Church, the best thing that he or she can do is forget Hepworth’s pipe dreams and go join an RCIA class.

The TAC cannot be compared to the Orthodox Church or the PNCC. The TAC is a Protestant sect that lacks a valid priesthood, and that reality has to be dealt with by Rome.

 

[GodBlessJoanie]

Well, well, — true then that the “gates of thell shall not prevail…”

I could never understand the Anglican Church… can’t one say that their church was build on — welll — utter defiance???

Who would/could believe any clergy who’s leader basically stuck his tongue out at Christ and said “I’m gonna marry who I wanna marry …”

Not a good role model for sure…

How wonderful it would be to have them come back under Rome and the Holy Father…

Blessings,
Joanie

 

[GKC]

" didn’t say that the baptism received by the members of the TAC is invalid. Even a pagan can validly baptize. The members of the TAC have received a valid baptism, but if they ever desire to come into full communion with the Catholic Church, they will have to receive the other two Sacraments of Initiation (Confirmation and the Holy Eucharist). Before they could receive these Sacraments of Inititation, they would need instruction in the faith, they would need to make a lifetime confession, and they would need to make a profession of the faith where they accept EVERYTHING that the Catholic Church teaches about faith and morals. No more birth control pills, no more divorce."

My apologies. I read your previous post as saying that the TAC would have to receive all the Sacraments of Initiation, and not just the Sacrament of Baptism. Which, as we know, would not be in accordance with RC doctrine. Apologies again.

I got my own doubts about anything of substance coming from this, but good luck to them anyway.

And the “few” comes from?

GKC

 

[Matt16_18]

GKC:

"And the “few” comes from?

From looking at the precedents that we have already. If a member of the TAC desires to convert to Catholicism, the Anglican is considered to be a candidate in the RCIA program. That is a recognition that the Sacrament of Confirmation and the Eucharist that the Anglican has received is invalid. The Anglican is treated the same way as a Methodist or a Lutheran that desires to convert, i.e. as a Protestant that has received a valid baptism, but is still in need receiving the other two Sacraments of Initiation. If a member of the PNCC or the Eastern Orthodox desired to come into full communion with the Catholic Church, they would neither be a catechumen nor a candidate in the RCIA program. They would simply have to make a profession of faith since they have already validly received all three Sacraments of Initiation.

Are valid orders bestowed upon an Anglican priest by merely having a PNCC bishop co-ordaining with an Anglican bishop? This is a question that is not that easy to answer.

The validity of a Sacrament always depends on intent. If a man were to go to the Sacrament of Confession and lie to the priest about being contrite and repentant for his sins, he may very well receive the prayers of absolution from the priest. The priest isn’t a mind reader, and if someone lies and says they are sorry, but in truth, they are not sorry, the priest isn’t responsible for those lies. The form of the Sacrament of Confession was done correctly, but the Sacrament was invalid because the person receiving it had no intention of doing what is required (i.e. being sorry and truly repentant for ones sins). If an Anglican thinks that he can manipulate the Sacrament of Ordination to bestow a valid ordination upon himself by having a PNCC bishop in attendance, the Anglican is committing a grave sin, since he has no intention of faithfully serving as a priest in the Catholic Church.

Sacraments are not magical acts that humans can manipulate for their own purposes. To treat a Sacrament in this manner is to commit mortal sin.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Matt16_18:

From looking at the precedents that we have already. If a member of the TAC desires to convert to Catholicism, the Anglican is considered to be a candidate in the RCIA program.

Actually, this is not totally true.

While most who enter the Church who have not been confirmed do so though the RCIA program, they are not truly candidates in that program.

RCIA is short for Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. RCIA is truly only proper for non-baptized individuals as all who have been baptized are Christians. Candidates in RCIA are only those who have not been baptized.

This shows up at the Mass with the Bishop. Only those who have not been baptized have their names entered into the Book of Life.

 

[Matt16_18]

ByzCath:

Actually, this is not totally true.

While most who enter the Church who have not been confirmed do so though the RCIA program, they are not truly candidates in that program.

I think you may be confused about the meaning of the word “candidate”.

In the typical RCIA class are both candidates and catechumens. The catechumens are those who have never received the Sacrament of Baptism. The candidates are those who have received a valid Sacrament of Baptism, but have not received at least one of the other two valid Sacraments of Initiation (Confirmation and Eucharist).

It is not unusual to have in an RCIA class Catholics that are adult candidates – i.e. Catholics that have received as Sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist as children, but have never received the Sacrament of Confirmation.