Anglican Church in America (TAC) and the Polish National Catholic Church

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I saw the coffee hours thing on an Episcopalian website on some “You know you’re Episcopalian…when” list. (It was self deprochating humor.) Robin Williams I think make the Catholic Lite comment- “All the pomp and pageantry, half the guilt.” I’m sure it’s more complex than that. Maybe there are some things about Anglicanism that you have to be raised on the culture or exposed to it for many years before it is fully understood. I was homeschooled part of high school and had to read GK Chesterton (A convert but still culturally British) and the “Ballad of the White Horse”. It was not my best subject, my mind was just too literal back then. I appreciate it more now but only because EWTN had a show which translated him into layman’s terms.
I’m sure there are similar issues in Eastern Orthodoxy when a literal, low context Weatern mind tries to understand it with rote learning.

Speaking of coincidence, the front page of our local paper today (www.timesleader.com) Sunday Nov. 15. Is about the PNCC! It doesn’t get into comparing theologies but talks about a PNCC parish and an RC parish having a joint bingo- but reminiscing about times when parents warned their kids to stay away from the other parish.
 
LJ(name removed by moderator)A said:
I saw the coffee hours thing on an Episcopalian website on some “You know you’re Episcopalian…when” list. (It was self deprochating humor.) Robin Williams I think make the Catholic Lite comment- “All the pomp and pageantry, half the guilt.” I’m sure it’s more complex than that. Maybe there are some things about Anglicanism that you have to be raised on the culture or exposed to it for many years before it is fully understood. I was homeschooled part of high school and had to read GK Chesterton (A convert but still culturally British) and the “Ballad of the White Horse”. It was not my best subject, my mind was just too literal back then. I appreciate it more now but only because EWTN had a show which translated him into layman’s terms.
I’m sure there are similar issues in Eastern Orthodoxy when a literal, low context Weatern mind tries to understand it with rote learning.

Speaking of coincidence, the front page of our local paper today (www.timesleader.com) Sunday Nov. 15. Is about the PNCC! It doesn’t get into comparing theologies but talks about a PNCC parish and an RC parish having a joint bingo- but reminiscing about times when parents warned their kids to stay away from the other parish.
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You may then have recognised my board name. I’ve collected him for almost 50 years. I am American, and not a cradle Anglican.

GKC
 
GKC said:
You may then have recognised my board name. I’ve collected him for almost 50 years. I am American, and not a cradle Anglican.

GKC
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GKC’s religion and location are left out of his screen profile intentionally. He’s at an undisclosed location! 😛 He’s also a fair-minded, thoughtful Anglican with a library that rivals Alexandria! 🙂
 
I didn’t bring up the actual GK Chesterton just because of your screen name. I know, it seems that way, but I do like the way Chesterton approached things even to his opposition. Aside from a few ideas I’m not even close to Chesterton, Distributivism, or Dale Ahlquist in worldview I’m all over the map.
Its that fair-minded, non-polemical, patient, and scholarly approach(maybe scholarly is not the right word) that I’d like to see more of in all Religions and all camps whether they be Traditionalist, Progressive, Moderate or some fluorescent shade off the linear spectrum.
 
Oh, I didn’t think you did, only that you might have noticed where I got it from. Not everyone does. I’m not a fan of Distributism, either. Among other things, using his paper, GKC’S WEEKLY, to be cash cow for Distributism worked him into an early grave.

Scholarly is not the word I’d use for him. Insightful.

GKC
LJ(name removed by moderator)A said:
I didn’t bring up the actual GK Chesterton just because of your screen name. I know, it seems that way, but I do like the way Chesterton approached things even to his opposition. Aside from a few ideas I’m not even close to Chesterton, Distributivism, or Dale Ahlquist in worldview I’m all over the map.
Its that fair-minded, non-polemical, patient, and scholarly approach(maybe scholarly is not the right word) that I’d like to see more of in all Religions and all camps whether they be Traditionalist, Progressive, Moderate or some fluorescent shade off the linear spectrum.
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Since the TAC, or a portion of it, is likely headed for a dip in the Tiber…what about the Anglican Catholic Church (reasonable size for a continuing group) and the APCK (also good size) linking up with the Polish National Catholic Church. All sides could benefit from the unity and the PNCC has limited intercommunion with Rome BUT would share much in common with the ACC & APCK in the sense of doctrinal issues. Together these three bodies would present a more sizable group and they all have property.

Assuming sharing of orders it could be quite interesting and present a sizable alternative to ACNA for those who are not happy with tolerating woman’s ordination among at least one segment of ACNA.

anglicancatholic.org/
anglicanpck.org/index.shtml
pncc.org/
 
It wouldn’t bother me. But the fact that the APCK/ACA/ACC/DHC/HCC-AR couldn’t get together amongst themselves suggests that they would not look as far afield as the PNCC.

Originally, back in 1979, at the formation of what is now referred to as the Continuum, the Church formed was (ironically) known as the Anglican Church in North America, a familiar name today. Didn’t last long, but fractured into what we now know as the Continuing Churches.

GKC
RevDrNorth said:
Since the TAC, or a portion of it, is likely headed for a dip in the Tiber…what about the Anglican Catholic Church (reasonable size for a continuing group) and the APCK (also good size) linking up with the Polish National Catholic Church. All sides could benefit from the unity and the PNCC has limited intercommunion with Rome BUT would share much in common with the ACC & APCK in the sense of doctrinal issues. Together these three bodies would present a more sizable group and they all have property.

Assuming sharing of orders it could be quite interesting and present a sizable alternative to ACNA for those who are not happy with tolerating woman’s ordination among at least one segment of ACNA.

anglicancatholic.org/
anglicanpck.org/index.shtml
pncc.org/
Click to expand...
 
The three of them could possibly pull it off. UECNA is rumored (read somewhere) to possibly merge with the ACC since it is so small. Virtue online had a piece about some rather odd statements from ++Reber about a couple of his Bishops that were elevated and immediately departed for the Reformed Episcopal Church. While ++Reber’s statements were a little strange, I can understand the upset.

The ACC/APCK/PNCC would make a nice sized and credible block with actual property.
 
It would be nice if someone more familiar with the PNCC would come across this thread someday.
It’s hard to find any detailed information on them since they are so small, yet in the world of independent Catholicism they are one of the largest, longest lasting, and most respectable. I mean respectable in that there are many independent Catholic sites that are rather flakey.
I did come across maybe 2 PNCC blogs, not much detail but the priest was lamenting about the decline in membership and the need for them to get the word out. I do think it would help if they established some type of communion with traditional Anglicans mainly because they’re geographically limited to the rust belt and and just a few in the sunbelt but very few. If one of their members needs to relocate to where there is no PNCC, this would give them a place to go.
I wonder about the Mexican National Catholic and Brazilian Apostolic Churches… maybe they would have more in common with them?
Educating priests is another issue, I think the PNCC only has one seminary which is in my area and so small that I never hear of it until 2 weeks ago. I think many of their priests are former RC.
 
While there is a limited “relationship” between the two, there are significant differences between the teachings of the PNCC and those of the Roman Catholic Church. The following information about the PNCC is from its own websites and that of the Polish Geneological Society of America.

There are some differences between the Polish National Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. First, concerning the sacraments, the PNCC considers the Word of God - which includes preaching - to be a sacrament, but keeps the number of sacraments at 7 by combining baptism and confirmation into one sacrament of initiation. ( See pgsa.org/Parishes/pncc.php and shfjpncc.wordpress.com/about/pncc-seven-sacraments-1st-synod ).

The PNCC also teaches that Original sin did not pass from Adam and Eve to succeeding generations. ( See pncc.org/who_beliefs.htm ).

While PNCC priests are married, the Polish Catholic Church (an offshoot of the PNCC in Poland) requires its priests to be celibate.

The PNCC traces its origins back to the Old Catholic rejection of the 1st Vatican Council’s declaration of Papal Infallibility, and at one time it was part of the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches.

At least some of their Apostolic Succession in the United States is derived from + Renee Villatte. (See the PNCC’s website - pncc.org/who_history.htm ). More details of its history are on the website of the Polish Genealogical Society of America (See pgsa.org/Parishes/pncc.php).

Today, the PNCC welcomes people of any ethnic origin.

The theological differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the PNCC were deemed significant enough by the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church’s leadership to prevent it from seeking a full communion agreement with the PNCC.

Blessings,
Irl
 
RevDrNorth said:
The three of them could possibly pull it off. UECNA is rumored (read somewhere) to possibly merge with the ACC since it is so small. Virtue online had a piece about some rather odd statements from ++Reber about a couple of his Bishops that were elevated and immediately departed for the Reformed Episcopal Church. While ++Reber’s statements were a little strange, I can understand the upset.

The ACC/APCK/PNCC would make a nice sized and credible block with actual property.
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Mergers come, mergers go. The DHC was once part of the EMC, then the APCK, then split off again. I’d love to see the APCK and the ACC unite. It wasn’t going to happen under +Morse, I was pretty sure. Now, I’m still dubious. But it would bring together two of the original four dioceses (in their current states) that formed the old, original ACNA.

I really need to find my copy of DIVIDED WE STAND.

GKC
 
GKC said:
Mergers come, mergers go. The DHC was once part of the EMC, then the APCK, then split off again. I’d love to see the APCK and the ACC unite. It wasn’t going to happen under +Morse, I was pretty sure. Now, I’m still dubious. But it would bring together two of the original four dioceses (in their current states) that formed the old, original ACNA.

I really need to find my copy of DIVIDED WE STAND.

GKC
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All these acronyms actually made me laugh out loud. Go back and look at this page of the thread. There are so many acronyms that it made me think of “Good Morning, Vietnam” where Robin Williams is making fun of Lt. Steve’s constant use of acronyms:
“Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn’t we keep the PC on the QT? ‘Cause if it leaks to the VC he could end up MIA, and then we’d all be put on KP.”
 
LJ(name removed by moderator)A said:
It would be nice if someone more familiar with the PNCC would come across this thread someday.
It’s hard to find any detailed information on them since they are so small, yet in the world of independent Catholicism they are one of the largest, longest lasting, and most respectable. I mean respectable in that there are many independent Catholic sites that are rather flakey.
I did come across maybe 2 PNCC blogs, not much detail but the priest was lamenting about the decline in membership and the need for them to get the word out. I do think it would help if they established some type of communion with traditional Anglicans mainly because they’re geographically limited to the rust belt and and just a few in the sunbelt but very few. If one of their members needs to relocate to where there is no PNCC, this would give them a place to go.
I wonder about the Mexican National Catholic and Brazilian Apostolic Churches… maybe they would have more in common with them?
Educating priests is another issue, I think the PNCC only has one seminary which is in my area and so small that I never hear of it until 2 weeks ago. I think many of their priests are former RC.
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I must admit that I am sometimes leery of posting on ‘forums’, but nevertheless, here I am, lol. I am a priest in the PNCC and run the blog: padreegan.wordpress.com and askthepncc.wordpress.com.

If you have specific questions, I will do my best to answer them.

In Christ,

PadreEgan
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
All these acronyms actually made me laugh out loud. Go back and look at this page of the thread. There are so many acronyms that it made me think of “Good Morning, Vietnam” where Robin Williams is making fun of Lt. Steve’s constant use of acronyms:
“Excuse me, sir. Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn’t we keep the PC on the QT? ‘Cause if it leaks to the VC he could end up MIA, and then we’d all be put on KP.”
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You are astute. I was typing in the style of a piece of Air Force jargon. I actually wrote like that, back when .

GKC
 
padreegan said:
I must admit that I am sometimes leery of posting on ‘forums’, but nevertheless, here I am, lol. I am a priest in the PNCC and run the blog: padreegan.wordpress.com and askthepncc.wordpress.com.

If you have specific questions, I will do my best to answer them.

In Christ,

PadreEgan
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting Father. The Polish National Catholic Church is one that many Roman Catholics are not aware of much less that they have valid sacraments and limited intercommunion with the RCC. You have certainly had an interesting role in terms of the Anglican Communion and breakaway groups in terms of Apostolic Succession (eg Chambers Succession and PIC succession).

From what I recall looking at your site you had some nice churches many back East. In fact, in New Jersey around Monmouth there used to be one.

It may never happen but it would seem that what you share with the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK) in terms of Catholicity without acceptance of all Roman Catholic doctrine coupled with the fact that there was intercommunion with Anglicans before…could create a good sized coalition in terms of combining numbers and parishes across the US. In fact, I believe the Anglican Catholic Church also has overseas territory. That coalition might even draw in other continuing Anglican groups who share Catholic doctrine but are not inclined to Rome. This might produce some momentum towards growth.

This really is an crucial time when this could work. You have Anglo Catholics who do not share RCC doctrine but do not feel they can join the Anglican Church in North America for several reasons including that at least one group ordains women. This would be a missed opportunity for those Anglicans and the PNCC not to seek some sort of unity while the timing is right.
 
RevDrNorth said:
Thank you for posting Father. The Polish National Catholic Church is one that many Roman Catholics are not aware of much less that they have valid sacraments and limited intercommunion with the RCC. You have certainly had an interesting role in terms of the Anglican Communion and breakaway groups in terms of Apostolic Succession (eg Chambers Succession and PIC succession).

From what I recall looking at your site you had some nice churches many back East. In fact, in New Jersey around Monmouth there used to be one.

It may never happen but it would seem that what you share with the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK) in terms of Catholicity without acceptance of all Roman Catholic doctrine coupled with the fact that there was intercommunion with Anglicans before…could create a good sized coalition in terms of combining numbers and parishes across the US. In fact, I believe the Anglican Catholic Church also has overseas territory. That coalition might even draw in other continuing Anglican groups who share Catholic doctrine but are not inclined to Rome. This might produce some momentum towards growth.
Click to expand...
ACC does have dioceses over seas.

GKC
 
RevDrNorth said:
Thank you for posting Father. The Polish National Catholic Church is one that many Roman Catholics are not aware of much less that they have valid sacraments and limited intercommunion with the RCC. You have certainly had an interesting role in terms of the Anglican Communion and breakaway groups in terms of Apostolic Succession (eg Chambers Succession and PIC succession).

From what I recall looking at your site you had some nice churches many back East. In fact, in New Jersey around Monmouth there used to be one.

It may never happen but it would seem that what you share with the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK) in terms of Catholicity without acceptance of all Roman Catholic doctrine coupled with the fact that there was intercommunion with Anglicans before…could create a good sized coalition in terms of combining numbers and parishes across the US. In fact, I believe the Anglican Catholic Church also has overseas territory. That coalition might even draw in other continuing Anglican groups who share Catholic doctrine but are not inclined to Rome. This might produce some momentum towards growth.

This really is an crucial time when this could work. You have Anglo Catholics who do not share RCC doctrine but do not feel they can join the Anglican Church in North America for several reasons including that at least one group ordains women. This would be a missed opportunity for those Anglicans and the PNCC not to seek some sort of unity while the timing is right.
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You are preaching to the choir. If you have read my blog, then you are aware of my frustration with the current mindset within the PNCC. It seems that we think we are it, and by it, no one else can be part of it unless they become part of us. That leaves little room for the Holy Spirit to enter into the equation of dialog between the PNCC and another Catholic body.

We run the risk of becoming a ‘paper church’ if we don’t open up to the Holy Spirit.

There is a great distrust when it comes to ‘Continuing Anglicanism’ in the mind of the PNCC. I am not 100% sure where this stems from, but nevertheless, the only reason the PNCC is around is because Utrecht took a chance, trusted the Spirit, and here we are 112 years later.

I fear that we are content in being the PNCC only, tis a shame as we have much to offer to those who are seeking a Catholic faith other than our big Sister Church.
 
padreegan said:
You are preaching to the choir. If you have read my blog, then you are aware of my frustration with the current mindset within the PNCC. It seems that we think we are it, and by it, no one else can be part of it unless they become part of us. That leaves little room for the Holy Spirit to enter into the equation of dialog between the PNCC and another Catholic body.

We run the risk of becoming a ‘paper church’ if we don’t open up to the Holy Spirit.

There is a great distrust when it comes to ‘Continuing Anglicanism’ in the mind of the PNCC. I am not 100% sure where this stems from, but nevertheless, the only reason the PNCC is around is because Utrecht took a chance, trusted the Spirit, and here we are 112 years later.

I fear that we are content in being the PNCC only, tis a shame as we have much to offer to those who are seeking a Catholic faith other than our big Sister Church.
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Yes it is a shame. You could effectively triple in size in terms of communicants and buildings, branching across the US and beyond. This might be the impetus for further growth as other Anglicans might join because of doctrinal issues (you share so much). An intercommunion like that would have a lot to offer. Keep praying!

PS you have a beautiful church.
 
padreegan said:
You are preaching to the choir. If you have read my blog, then you are aware of my frustration with the current mindset within the PNCC. It seems that we think we are it, and by it, no one else can be part of it unless they become part of us. That leaves little room for the Holy Spirit to enter into the equation of dialog between the PNCC and another Catholic body.

We run the risk of becoming a ‘paper church’ if we don’t open up to the Holy Spirit.

There is a great distrust when it comes to ‘Continuing Anglicanism’ in the mind of the PNCC. I am not 100% sure where this stems from, but nevertheless, the only reason the PNCC is around is because Utrecht took a chance, trusted the Spirit, and here we are 112 years later.

I fear that we are content in being the PNCC only, tis a shame as we have much to offer to those who are seeking a Catholic faith other than our big Sister Church.
Click to expand...
Father, I have looked through your blogs and enjoyed reading them. I hope that the PNCC (aka National Catholic Church) can do more to get word the word out. It is possible for some innovation (whether it be in terms of intercommunion with Anglican groups like ACC/APCK or otherwise) to move things along for your denomination.

If I recall correctly, what did a lot for growth in the Antiochian Archdiocese was when their Metropolitan (?) was receptive to a group of Protestants (called the Evangelical Orthodox Church) who wanted to become Orthodox. Other Orthodox groups debated, put them on hold, etc (even when they went to meet with the Ecumenical Patriarch). I saw an article crediting the Ant. Arch’s Metropolitan’s decision with greatly increasing their size and movement towards continued growth. On the other hand he could have not been open to the move of the spirit and they would have been much smaller.

Maybe God will use the PNCC like that.
 
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