Anglican Clergy - Both High Church and Evangelical

[ConfusedTim]

The pastor at the local Anglican church offers two types of services. The 8am service is for high church members and the pastor puts on the robes and conducts the liturgical service. Then at 10 am he takes off the robes and participates in the evangelical type of service. Parishoners who attend the 8am service would NEVER attend the 10 and vice versa.

My feeling is that this high church/evangelical dichotomy is ok for parishoners but dishonest in some ways for the pastor to be involved in both. Surely the pastor should lead them one way or another?

 

[gmcbroom]

Actually its no different than the Catholic ipriest who celebrate more than one Rite. Take my catholic priest. He is a Tri Ritual priest. He knows the Roman church rite, Maronite rite, and Byzantine rite. The key issue is I believe a priest can only be ordained in one in his case its Maronite. But once ordained he can learn the others. The Anglican priest your discussing is simply doing the same thing. Actually we should all get used to it because there is a huge shortage of priests and this is the priests way of keeping the faith alive.

 

[ConfusedTim]

Actually its quite different because the beliefs and doctrines of both groups are not the same. The first group see the ordination of a priest and their version of communion as core beliefs whereas the second see them as quite different. Te first group also have confirmation and child baptism whereas most people in the second group wait for you to be an adult. When i attend the evangelical service i keep hoping the priest will have some back bone and speak to the congregation about what goes on at the 8am service and why it happens but he never does

 

[mfj]

Are you saying that the Priest is actually teaching two theologies, sets of doctrine and etc.?
That would seem to be a problem. But if he is staying faithful in teaching, ie the RCC does not say you must be baptized as an infant nor that one must be confirmed to be saved.
There may not be a problem. It may be a good way to reconcile with other denominations.

 

[BrianH]

What is your connection to this church?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi ConfusedTim,

Well this is the problem with Anglicanism, high and low, evangelical and anglo-catholic, all under one banner. I have never heard of a rector changing outfits and strattling two worlds in a few hours like you describe. What I have heard of and have seen are rectors of both persuasions guiding their parish in one of the two directions, but not both. My old parish was a bit broad though our rector was leaning more toward low church. He was lower in his leanings but still wore clericals, honored Lent and the sacraments, let us call him “Father James” instead of “Rich” which his old previous low church called him in the midwest, and he respected those of a more catholic-leaning like me. But he could be very iconoclastic and loved Stott and Packer, his heroes as well as CS Lewis of course.

I see you’re from Australia. If you’re from Sydney, they have some strange innovations like “lay consecrations,” which I find perplexing and heretical to be sure!

Usually in Anglican parishes there are at least two services: one rite I, one rite II. At least that’s my usual observation. Rite I is more “old school” and lends itself better to a more anglo catholic sensibility but I have never heard of one service being anglo catholic and the next being evangelical low? I’m sure it happens in plenty of parishes, I just haven’t seen or heard of them.

I have always found it hard to reconcile a group that feels more of a priesthood of all believers evangelical, informal, less-sacramental, more Calvinistic feeling along with a group that uses incense, benediction, Marian devotion, reservation, elevation, and confessionals, etc.? Strange dichotomy but that’s the nature of Anglicanism—blending two worlds. It’s a strange science and a tough balancing act. It all goes back to good ole’ Elizabeth and that compromise…

 

[AJTheMan]

Catholic churches do this all of the time. It’s just something to get used to. (even in the Anglican community)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’ll never see priests take off their clericals and start turning Mass into an evangelical-like environment where they’ll just forego parts of the Mass and turn things all informal and just have a thirty minute sermon and some praise music. They don’t skip the Eucharist and talk about being born-again.

You’re right that most parishes have a more traditional mass and a bit more contemporary one but both contain all the essentials of the Mass itself, the liturgy of the word, liturgy of the eucharist, holy communion, a homily, the formalities of blessings and dismissal, procession, etc. What the poster is referring to, I believe, is having two completely different not only liturgical styles but approaches to church polity and theology. Evangelical and anglo-catholic in a matter of a few hours is nothing close to a Catholic parish having a more contemporary and one more old-school Mass I don’t think.

Catholic churches do this all of the time. It’s just something to get used to. (even in the Anglican community)

 

[AJTheMan]

You’ll never see priests take off their clericals and start turning Mass into an evangelical-like environment where they’ll just forego parts of the Mass and turn things all informal and just have a thirty minute sermon and some praise music. They don’t skip the Eucharist and talk about being born-again.

You’re right that most parishes have a more traditional mass and a bit more contemporary one but both contain all the essentials of the Mass itself, the liturgy of the word, liturgy of the eucharist, holy communion, a homily, the formalities of blessings and dismissal, procession, etc. What the poster is referring to, I believe, is having two completely different not only liturgical styles but approaches to church polity and theology. Evangelical and anglo-catholic in a matter of a few hours is nothing close to a Catholic parish having a more contemporary and one more old-school Mass I don’t think.

At the local cathedral, you have Latin masses. In other countries you have Eastern Orthodox style masses as well.

 

[GKC]

I’m not sure what is going on at the parish in question. But certainly a Prayer Book communion is going to look a little different from a High Sung Mass. And the priest will vest differently, too. Such happens in my parish. Oury late, Anglo-Catholic rector greatly preferred only either a said or sung high Mass. But he would offer the Mornng Prayer/Communion, when there was a request for it, at the 900 service. No change in doctrine though. Merely a change in ritual.

GKC

You’ll never see priests take off their clericals and start turning Mass into an evangelical-like environment where they’ll just forego parts of the Mass and turn things all informal and just have a thirty minute sermon and some praise music. They don’t skip the Eucharist and talk about being born-again.

You’re right that most parishes have a more traditional mass and a bit more contemporary one but both contain all the essentials of the Mass itself, the liturgy of the word, liturgy of the eucharist, holy communion, a homily, the formalities of blessings and dismissal, procession, etc. What the poster is referring to, I believe, is having two completely different not only liturgical styles but approaches to church polity and theology. Evangelical and anglo-catholic in a matter of a few hours is nothing close to a Catholic parish having a more contemporary and one more old-school Mass I don’t think.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Right, exactly. I’ve heard of that, no surprise there. But to have an anglo-catholic take off the garb after Mass and get into a low church service without communion and with a huge focus on sermon, change of music and liturgy all that drastic, never heard of it. But as you and I know in Anglicanism ANYTHING is possible. Court jester outfits at Christmas and Bulgarian priests that sound like Lugosi, anything can happen!

I’m not sure what is going on at the parish in question. But certainly a Prayer Book communion is going to look a little different from a High Sung Mass. And the priest will vest differently, too. Such happens in my parish. Oury late, Anglo-Catholic rector greatly preferred only either a said or sung high Mass. But he would offer the Mornng Prayer/Communion, when there was a request for it, at the 900 service. No change in doctrine though. Merely a change in ritual.

GKC

 

[gmcbroom]

either way so long as the rector can perform both services it shouldn’t really matter. Unless of course the OP is scandalized by it. I think has to stop if it causes scandal. So Confused Tim what do you think? Is the priests’ actions enough to make you stop him or will you let it go? I know the catholic church is huge on scandal. Is the Anglican church as well?

 

[Justy90]

The pastor at the local Anglican church offers two types of services. The 8am service is for high church members and the pastor puts on the robes and conducts the liturgical service. Then at 10 am he takes off the robes and participates in the evangelical type of service. Parishoners who attend the 8am service would NEVER attend the 10 and vice versa.

My feeling is that this high church/evangelical dichotomy is ok for parishoners but dishonest in some ways for the pastor to be involved in both. Surely the pastor should lead them one way or another?

Why?

 

[Justy90]

Hi ConfusedTim,

Well this is the problem with Anglicanism, high and low, evangelical and anglo-catholic, all under one banner. I have never heard of a rector changing outfits and strattling two worlds in a few hours like you describe. What I have heard of and have seen are rectors of both persuasions guiding their parish in one of the two directions, but not both. My old parish was a bit broad though our rector was leaning more toward low church. He was lower in his leanings but still wore clericals, honored Lent and the sacraments, let us call him “Father James” instead of “Rich” which his old previous low church called him in the midwest, and he respected those of a more catholic-leaning like me. But he could be very iconoclastic and loved Stott and Packer, his heroes as well as CS Lewis of course.

I see you’re from Australia. If you’re from Sydney, they have some strange innovations like “lay consecrations,” which I find perplexing and heretical to be sure!

Usually in Anglican parishes there are at least two services: one rite I, one rite II. At least that’s my usual observation. Rite I is more “old school” and lends itself better to a more anglo catholic sensibility but I have never heard of one service being anglo catholic and the next being evangelical low? I’m sure it happens in plenty of parishes, I just haven’t seen or heard of them.

I have always found it hard to reconcile a group that feels more of a priesthood of all believers evangelical, informal, less-sacramental, more Calvinistic feeling along with a group that uses incense, benediction, Marian devotion, reservation, elevation, and confessionals, etc.? Strange dichotomy but that’s the nature of Anglicanism—blending two worlds. It’s a strange science and a tough balancing act. It all goes back to good ole’ Elizabeth and that compromise…

With Catholicism you have Franciscans, Opus Dei, Jesuits Dominicans etc. One can make the argument that you have vast diversity there all under one umbrella.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But you don’t have diversity of doctrine. For example, Dominicans don’t argue with Franciscans whether or not Transubstantiation exists or whether or not Mary is immaculate. You don’t have Opus Dei telling Augustinians that there is no such thing as the priesthood or that confession is unnecessary. They all agree on core doctrine and will celebrate the Catholic Mass in the same way. With Anglicans, most very low church evangelical Anglicans don’t celebrate the Eucharist every week, look at church polity through Calvinist lenses, don’t believe in sacramental confession nor do most believe that the priesthood is any different from a Baptist pastor. They don’t view holy orders as high church or anglo catholics do. So I can’t see your comparison. Low church and high church Anglicans are worlds apart. The anglo catholics don’t buy into the 39 Articles, low church live by them by and large with great devotion. Anglo catholics often accept transbustantiation (though it’s not demanded) and have benediction, adoration, confession, believe in seven sacraments, have Marian devotion, etc. Evangelicals like John Stott consider confession not only unnecessary but actually counterproductive and silly. JI Packer and John Stott believe in the priesthood of all believers with more of a calvinist reformed order. So comparing Dominicans and Franciscans to a denomination with drastically polarized factions is comparing apples and oranges IMO.

With Catholicism you have Franciscans, Opus Dei, Jesuits Dominicans etc. One can make the argument that you have vast diversity there all under one umbrella.

 

[ConfusedTim]

i am a Roman Catholic who attends a RC Church every week. My wife sings in a band that plays at the evangelical service - sort of soft rock type Christian music. I go along to support her.

This is a Sydney Anglican parish and yes the same priest definetly de-robes and within an hour of presiding at the high church service participates in the evangelical service. Although it has to be said that his involvement at the evangelical service is less than at the high church.

I have theological disagreements with friends (met them through my wife) who attend the evangelical service and who are believe in sola scriptura. And of course of them take their chosen bits of the bible literally e.g. Genesis.and interpret other bits such as John 6 as symbolic.

I just dont understand how a priest can go from one group to another and not put down a few markers about what he believes to be the truth.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s my definition of torture, listening to soft rock type Christian music at church. I’d flip my lid. I hate it when our music director starts busting out Amazing Grace, the most Baptisty protestant total human depravity tune of all time. Everyone looks at me when Amazing Grace comes on because they know I loathe it! lol I see Baptists and Assembly of God folks on TV and how they carry on at these Sunday morning evangelical churches and I can’t imagine being a parishoner…

i am a Roman Catholic who attends a RC Church every week. My wife sings in a band that plays at the evangelical service - sort of soft rock type Christian music. I go along to support her.

This is a Sydney Anglican parish and yes the same priest definetly de-robes and within an hour of presiding at the high church service participates in the evangelical service. Although it has to be said that his involvement at the evangelical service is less than at the high church.

I have theological disagreements with friends (met them through my wife) who attend the evangelical service and who are believe in sola scriptura. And of course of them take their chosen bits of the bible literally e.g. Genesis.and interpret other bits such as John 6 as symbolic.

I just dont understand how a priest can go from one group to another and not put down a few markers about what he believes to be the truth.

 

[ConfusedTim]

That’s my definition of torture, listening to soft rock type Christian music at church. I’d flip my lid. I hate it when our music director starts busting out Amazing Grace, the most Baptisty protestant total human depravity tune of all time. Everyone looks at me when Amazing Grace comes on because they know I loathe it! lol I see Baptists and Assembly of God folks on TV and how they carry on at these Sunday morning evangelical churches and I can’t imagine being a parishoner…

Lol I know what you mean. The first time i heard it i had hairs standing on the back of my kneck. Now i go “oh no not again”. The saddest thing is 2 middle aged women who always stand on the alter (podium?) as part of the group and raise a hand in the air which again the first few times was fine but now its cringeworthy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Early in our marriage, my wife and I at that time were looking toward Protestantism. We went to a LCMS Lutheran parish here. We sat down and prayed. When the service started and you could see and hear a guy sitting on a drum set start pounding out grooves that sounded like The Scorpions’ Rock you Like a Hurricane, we were out of there faster than Chuck Yeager on a test flight! We went back to a different service and discovered the elder was taking the pastor’s place “consecrating” the eucharist. Again, we bolted! lol…Then we went to an Anglican service and the rector went on and on about divorce and how it’s a part of life, no big woop, again, we didn’t make it to communion LOL…

We actually, SADLY, have a “youth Mass” at St. Mary’s at 8pm on Sunday nights with mostly teens and they have drums and bass guitars and the whole nine yards. It only took me one time to go to that sucker to learn my lesson. And I’m a guitar-player myself!! I’ve played guitar since I was 13 and I’m 34 now. And even I know when it’s tasteful and when it’s not…can you imagine the early Christians in the catecombs singing Bon Jovi style stuff…“Johnny used to work on the docks!!!”…

Lol I know what you mean. The first time i heard it i had hairs standing on the back of my kneck. Now i go “oh no not again”. The saddest thing is 2 middle aged women who always stand on the alter (podium?) as part of the group and raise a hand in the air which again the first few times was fine but now its cringeworthy.