Anglican communion and the monarch

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You are correct, there was plenty of sin on both sides - but also plenty of truth.

The Reformers were right about the scandal of selling indulgences, the imprudent refusal to publish the Bible in the vernacular and I concede that Luther also had some theological merits as well. Both him and the Church of England, to their tremendous credit, did not cast aside the Church Fathers or the belief in the apostolic succession.

On the other hand, while I have always respected Lutheranism and Anglicanism, indeed sympathised with them theologically as well, I cannot say the same for Calvinism which amounted to the destruction of the apostolic succession, a hideous depiction of God as a cruel tyrant predestining men to hell, an excessive Augustinianism (remarkable considering sola scriptura!), a conception of human nature as totally depraved, bare, dull, joyless church buildings and worship services…I could go on but for fear of insulting Presbyterians I will not. Christmas was banned in Scotland until the 1950s.
Thank you for your fairness and for being civil and resonable! I agree with your points.
May I ask, what are your views on Calvinist theology? I admire much of Lutheran and Arminian thought but John Calvin is the limit for me…John Knox I dare not even mention…
I wish I could say otherwise.
I reject much of Calvinism and absolutely reject double-predestination, however, I don’t necessarily reject the Lutheran understanding of single-predestination. Except for maybe Calvinists, I think we can all agree that God desires all to be saved and Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was for all people.
 
The Catholic Church did damage to the Catholic Church for completely and arrogantly dismissing reformers, dissent, and by playing too much politics. While I agree that there is plenty of sin on the side of Henry and Luther, you cannot seriously hold them totally responsible for the split.

Luther was very much against the Lutheran Church being called Lutheran and he absolutely did not want a split. Also, the RCC at first completely and arrogantly dismissed Luther and his initial criticisms (which were very very conservative criticisms). If the RCC had taken his accurate critiques much more seriously, maybe the Lutheran split does not happen. However, once they realized what kind of a “threat” he was, they then desired to have him killed. You simply cannot lay all of this at the feet of Luther, it is much more complicated than that.

The devil must have been equally as happy at the hypocrisy of the Pope denying Henry an annulment, while the Pope was entertaining mistresses in the Apostolic Palace! Just how many “nephews” did these celibate medieval Popes have running around?

Furthermore, like I said earlier, the RCC wanted Luther dead, rather than address his critiques. Plenty of sin on the RCC side of these issues.
Actually it was Henry that put to death people who were going against the church because at that time if you went against the church you went against the state, like a criminal. Totally different in those days. The Catholic church created many things we have today in our civilizations that most people don’t even know how many good things the Catholic church did, they only look at the bad. I never said the Catholic church didn’t do damage, but your side of the history is wrong.
It makes no difference like I said what happened. She is the only one true church and the people don’t make the church, Jesus Christ does. So two bads do not make it right if your both wrong you repent, but you don’t leave a family even if it is not perfect.
We have Jesus Christ fully present in the blessed sacrament in the Catholic church and if you want to follow Christ then you have to follow his church and he only had one church. Good bad or indifferent, she is the bride of Christ. No body is arguing that Catholic people didn’t make mistakes. But she is still standing.
GB
 
What Catholics Must Understand about Anglicanism

By: Fr. Dwight Longenecker

Anyone with a love of history, literature, and culture would find it difficult to resist the appeal of the Anglican Church. With some of the finest architecture in Christendom, an exquisite tradition of sacred music, fine liturgies with splendid hymns, Anglicanism takes all that is most refined, educated, eccentric, and traditional about England and filters it through the Christian faith.

The expression of the Christian faith we call Anglicanism is now in terminal decline. Pope Benedict XVI’s recent lifeline to disaffected Anglicans makes it imperative for Catholics to understand present-day Anglicanism. Much of the ecumenical adventure between Anglicans and Catholics over the last 40 years has been fruitful, but its success has been limited because many Catholics do not understand the complexity of the Anglican church. The sort of Catholic apologetics often used with Evangelical Christians is ineffective for Anglicans. To approach Anglicans and to be able to answer their questions about the Catholic Church, we have to understand Anglicanism from the ground up.

English to Its Core

The story of the English Reformation is more complex than people realize. In England, the Reformation was more a revolution. The dissolution of the monasteries brought about a redistribution of wealth so radical that nothing like it was seen until the French and Russian Revolutions. As the monasteries were dissolved, the entire educational, social welfare, and health care systems collapsed. The monastic lands and riches were simply taken by the king and given to his cronies.

Over time, the effect was to identify the Church of England not only with the monarchy, but with Englishness. Members of the Church of England hold their Christianity in one hand and their Englishness in the other, and they pray by putting their two hands together. Converts to the Church of England often do not realize the depth of this union of Christianity and English nationalism. More importantly, many Anglicans are unaware how much their Christian faith is defined by their English culture.

This means that Englishness is written in and through the Anglican religion in a far deeper way than Scottish culture is written into Presbyterianism or German culture into Lutheranism. Without having a firsthand experience of this blend of religion and culture, it is impossible to understand the heart of Anglicanism.

Global Growth

Anglicanism began to travel as the English began to travel. First it came to the American colonies. For political reasons, Anglicans in America had their bishops consecrated by the Scottish (who were also anti-English). Because Anglican means English, both the Scottish and American Anglicans chose the name Episcopal, meaning “with bishops.”

During the expansion of the British Empire, the Anglican church also spread to Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the other British colonies—most notably in Africa through the work of the Victorian missionary societies. As the Anglican church spread, each national church was given its own hierarchy and as the colonies eventually gained independence, so did their national churches. The result was the Worldwide Anglican Communion.

It is easy to think that the worldwide Anglican church is rather like the Catholic Church. We have the pope in Rome; they have the Archbishop of Canterbury. But nothing could be further from the truth. There is no central authority in the Anglican church. Each of the national churches are independent provinces. The Archbishop of Nigeria has complete authority in Nigeria and owes no real obedience or loyalty to the Archbishop of Canterbury. The same applies to all the national churches. The Episcopal church of the United States, the Anglican church of Canada, and all the other national churches are held together only by a shared Anglican ancestry.

Three Ways to Be Anglican

Or is it 300? While all the national churches that make up the Worldwide Anglican Communion are independent, they also have particular theological complexions. Depending on the churchmanship of the missionaries who went there, the different national churches might be Anglo-Catholic or Evangelical—or they may have gone liberal.

This leads us to the next bewildering aspect of Anglicanism. From the time of the Reformation there have been Anglicans who have been more Catholic in their theology and understanding of the church and there have been those who have been more Protestant. The two have always existed in an unhappy tension within the Anglican church.

I attended an Anglican seminary of the Evangelical persuasion called Wycliffe Hall, and down the road was the Anglo-Catholic seminary called St. Stephen’s House. The two were totally opposed in theology, liturgical practice, culture, and ethos. In Oxford was an Anglican seminary which was “broad church,” or liberal. This third strand of Anglicanism has always been a kind of worldly, established, urbane type of religion that is at home with the powers that be and always adapts to the culture in which it finds itself.

These three forces co-exist in the Anglican church—united by nothing more than a shared baptism, a patriotic allegiance to the national church, and the need to tolerate each other. Unfortunately the toleration frequently wears thin. The Anglo-Catholics, the Evangelicals, and the liberals are constantly at war. Their theology, their liturgy, their politics, and their spirituality are in basic contradiction to one another.

Continued
 
What Catholics Must Understand about Anglicanism

Continued

Other influences have complicated things further, and the three main strands of Anglicanism have divided into sub-strands depending on the influences of various individuals and movements. Just about every permutation and mixture of politics and religion is found within the Anglican church.

Stranger and Stranger

Are you confused yet? It gets thicker. Since the mid-19th century the Anglican Communion has been slowly disintegrating. This has happened through breakaway groups who maintain the Anglican traditions but have set up their own structures and founded their own churches and communions.

In 1976 the Episcopal church voted to ordain women, and in 1979 it promulgated a new and controversial version of its prayer book. This prompted several new breakaway movements, and these movements fractured among themselves. The Continuing Anglican movement was thus born out of the conflicts in the Episcopal church. This fracturing continued for the next 30 years with more and more Continuing Anglican churches being formed. Some of these churches were Evangelical; some Anglo-Catholic. The movement spread throughout the world so that now there are over 150 independent Anglican churches around the world.

Recently, in the wake of the consecration of an openly gay bishop, even more Anglicans have broken away. This new batch of disaffected Anglicans—largely Evangelical and led by bishops in the developing world—do not wish to form a new church. Instead they have come up with the novel solution of remaining within the Anglican Communion, but operating with a parallel hierarchy and international board of cooperation and finance. Instead of splitting they aim to remain within and be a “prophetic voice” within the Anglican church (or a thorn in its side, depending on your perspective).

The dissident groups led by the bishops of the developing world sense that they have numbers on their side. There are more practicing Anglicans in Nigeria alone than there are in England, America, and Canada combined. These New-World Anglicans are flexing their muscles and fighting for the future of the Anglican church.

Pope Benedict’s Lifeline

In the midst of this bewildering complexity, what does Pope Benedict hope to accomplish by setting up a new Anglican structure in communion with the Holy See? First of all, he understands the intricate complexity of Anglicanism. The Holy Father is not attempting to take over the whole Anglican church and annex the Anglican Communion. Such a venture would be completely impossible. The liberals and Evangelicals would never accept Catholic dogmas or the authority of the pope.

Neither is the Holy Father attempting to poach Anglo-Catholics. Instead he is responding to the pleas from thousands of lay people, clergy, and bishops within the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Anglican church. These individuals are mostly within the continuing Anglican churches. The Traditional Anglican Communion is a confederation of perhaps 500,000 Anglicans worldwide who belong to various breakaway denominations of an Anglo-Catholic complexion. Some of them may respond positively to the pope’s offer. In addition, some Anglo-Catholics within the Church of England and Episcopal church may find a way to come into full communion with the Catholic Church.

If they do, they will be following the path of the pioneering former Anglican clergy who are already ordained under the Pastoral Provision, which allowed married former Anglican priests to be dispensed from the vow of celibacy and to be ordained as Catholic priests. Most of them serve within the existing diocesan structures as Latin-rite Catholic clergy. However, a few in the United States serve within their own Anglican Use parishes. These are personal parishes within existing dioceses where the Vatican-approved Anglican Use Latin-rite liturgy is used. Pope Benedict’s new offer builds on the existing structures and provides not only for former married Anglican clergy to be ordained as Catholic priests, and not only for there to be Anglican Use parishes, but for these clergy and parishes to have their own “ordinary”—a former Anglican priest or bishop who will oversee the parishes and clergy in cooperation with the local diocesan bishop. This means Anglican converts will have an advocate who understands their peculiar situation and can help them come home to Rome easily and quickly.

Continued
 
What Catholics Must Understand about Anglicanism
Continued

What Next?

Catholics who want to welcome Anglicans need to understand a bit more about the Anglican mentality.

Anglo-Catholics consider themselves to be Catholics within the Anglican Church. Furthermore, many traditionalist Anglo Catholics see the liturgical abuses, liberalism, and spiritual decay within the Catholic Church and believe themselves to be more faithful to Catholicism than most Catholics.

The typical Anglo-Catholic will look, pray, and worship in a way that looks like a traditional Catholic’s style of worship. He will use Roman liturgies, keep the Roman calendar, pray the rosary, and be Catholic in everything but full communion with the Holy See. The task for the Catholic apologist is to help him see that this one thing he lacks is the most important thing.

The traditionalist Anglo-Catholic is very similar to a traditionalist Catholic group in his mentality. He believes himself to be part of a remnant of true believers whose job it is to keep the faith and stand firm, while all the others in his church drift into moral decay, heresy, schism, and apostasy. Rather than seeing full communion with Rome as the answer, he sees it as going out of the frying pan into the fire. He is not convinced that Rome is any purer than the Anglican church.

The bottom line in discussion with Anglicans is the question of authority. Should the Catholic apologist point to the disarray within Anglicanism the Anglican may well reply, “You Catholics have just as much variety and dissent and division in your ranks.”

To which we must say, “That may be, but we do not claim it as a virtue. We have one authority on earth. We have one clear teaching. We may not all obey it. We may not all unite around it, but it is there. It is one. It is holy. It is Catholic. It is apostolic. It is a rock on which to build, and the rock is Peter and his successor.”
 
What Catholics Must Understand about Anglicanism

By: Fr. Dwight Longenecker



For political reasons, Anglicans in America had their bishops consecrated by the Scottish (who were also anti-English). Because Anglican means English, both the Scottish and American Anglicans chose the name Episcopal, meaning “with bishops.”
Not so. The first American bishop wished to be consecrated by Church of England bishops, but was unable to take the oath of allegiance, and was consecrated by the Scots. The next three American bishops were consecrated by Church of England bishops, and they dominate the American list of succession. The statement “who were also anti-English” is facile.
 
Not so. The first American bishop wished to be consecrated by Church of England bishops, but was unable to take the oath of allegiance, and was consecrated by the Scots. The next three American bishops were consecrated by Church of England bishops, and they dominate the American list of succession. The statement “who were also anti-English” is facile.
True. As was appropriate, Seabury went to the Bishop of London first. Where he was judged not a valid subject for the consecration, as stated.

GKC
 
The Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA has 0 = no allegiance or relationship with the Monarch of Great Britain-after the Revolution the limk was broken = period

Rather that use the word Anglican which after the Revoltution was associated with the Tories and England the Church was named the “Episcopal Church”

Episcopal Church liturgy can not be said in a RC Church-it can only be celebrated by episcopal Church members who convert to RC and it is practied as part of the Ordinariate

Prince Charles was a Widower when he married Camilla
But Camilla is divorced.
 
Not so. The first American bishop wished to be consecrated by Church of England bishops, but was unable to take the oath of allegiance, and was consecrated by the Scots. The next three American bishops were consecrated by Church of England bishops, and they dominate the American list of succession. The statement “who were also anti-English” is facile.
This article was posted by Fr. on the Catholic Answer Forum, you might want to take that up with him, I didn’t write the article. He seems to know his stuff.
GB
 
Fr. Dwight Longenecker

Fr. Dwight Longenecker is an American who has spent most of his life living and working in England. Fr Dwight was brought up in an Evangelical home in Pennsylvania. After graduating from the fundamentalist Bob Jones University with a degree in Speech and English, he went to study theology atOxford University. He was eventually ordained as an Anglican priest and served as a curate, a school chaplain in Cambridge and a country parson.

Realizing that he and the Anglican Church were on divergent paths, in 1995 Fr. Dwight and his family were received into the Catholic Church. He spent the next ten years working as a freelance Catholic writer, contributing to over twenty-five magazines, papers and journals in Britain, Ireland and the USA.

Fr. Dwight is the editor of a best-selling book of English conversion stories called The Path to Rome-- Modern Journeys to the Catholic Faith. He has written Listen My Son—a daily Benedictine devotional book which applies the Rule of St Benedict to the task of modern parenting. St Benedict and St Thérèse is a study of the lives and thought of two of the most popular saints. In the field of Catholic apologetics, Fr. Dwight wrote Challenging Catholics with John Martin, the former editor of the Church of England Newspaper. More Christianity is a straightforward and popular explanation of the Catholic faith for Evangelical Christians. Friendly and non-confrontational, it invites the reader to move from ‘Mere Christianity’ to ‘More Christianity’. Mary-A Catholic Evangelical Debate is a debate with an old Bob Jones friend David Gustafson who is now an Evangelical Episcopalian. Fr. Dwight’s Adventures in Orthodoxy is described as ‘a Chestertonian romp through the Apostles’ Creed.’ He wrote Christianity Pure & Simple which was published by the Catholic Truth Society in England and Sophia Institute Press in the USA. He has also published How to Be an Ordinary Hero and his book Praying the Rosary for Inner Healing was published by Our Sunday Visitor in May 2008. His latest books are, The Gargoyle Code --a book in the tradition of Screwtape Letters and a book of poems called A Sudden Certainty.

Fr. Dwight has contributed a chapter to the third volume of the best selling Surprised by Truth series and is a regular contributor to InsideCatholic, First Things, This Rock and National Catholic Register. Fr. Dwight has also written a couple of children’s books, had three of his screenplays produced, and is finishing his first novel. He’s working on The Romance of Religion and his autobiography: There and Back Again.

In 2006 Fr. Dwight accepted a post as Chaplain toSt Joseph’s Catholic School in Greenville,South Carolina. This brought him and his family back, not only to his hometown, but also to the American Bible belt, and hometown of Bob Jones University. In December 2006 he was ordained as a Catholic priest under the special pastoral provision for married former Anglican clergy. He ministers at St. Joseph’s, and in the parish of St. Mary’s, Greenville.
 
This article was posted by Fr. on the Catholic Answer Forum, you might want to take that up with him, I didn’t write the article. He seems to know his stuff.
GB
The singular point that Picky Picky made is historically accurate. Without any comment on Fr. Longenecker.

GKC
 
The Presbyterian church is not the state religion of Scotland, merely its traditional national church in a cultural sense.
I think is is more than a ‘cultural sense’. It is legally the national church of Scotland but not in the same sense as the CoE in England. It has complete independence, unlike the CoE, whose bishops are officially appointed by the government - the Prime Minister is the one who makes that decision, which was one factor that made it difficult for Tony Blair to convert to Catholicism while he was still PM. The monarch swears an oath to defend the Church of Scotland and may attend the General Assembly.

I am not sure if it is true but I was told that the Queen is a Presbyterian when she is in Scotland.
 
I think is is more than a ‘cultural sense’. It is legally the national church of Scotland but not in the same sense as the CoE in England. It has complete independence, unlike the CoE, whose bishops are officially appointed by the government - the Prime Minister is the one who makes that decision, which was one factor that made it difficult for Tony Blair to convert to Catholicism while he was still PM. The monarch swears an oath to defend the Church of Scotland and may attend the General Assembly.

I am not sure if it is true but I was told that the Queen is a Presbyterian when she is in Scotland.
Hi jimkhong. I declare that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to reminding people that the Prime Minister no longer chooses bishops of the Church of England, Trollope or no Trollope.

When a see becomes vacant a commission, the voting members of which represent the Church at diocesan and national levels, bishops, clergy and lay, meets to hear reports on diocesan and national needs, and proposes a candidate for election plus a second candidate in case anything prevents the preferred candidate accepting the job. The two names are sent to the Prime Minister, who advises the Queen to nominate the commission’s preferred candidate. She then nominates that candidate for election by the chapter of the cathedral concerned.

The advice by the Prime Minister, the nomination by the Queen, and the election by the chapter are constitutional necessities, but the actual choice is made by the commission.
 
Hi jimkhong. I declare that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to reminding people that the Prime Minister no longer chooses bishops of the Church of England, Trollope or no Trollope.

When a see becomes vacant a commission, the voting members of which represent the Church at diocesan and national levels, bishops, clergy and lay, meets to hear reports on diocesan and national needs, and proposes a candidate for election plus a second candidate in case anything prevents the preferred candidate accepting the job. The two names are sent to the Prime Minister, who advises the Queen to nominate the commission’s preferred candidate. She then nominates that candidate for election by the chapter of the cathedral concerned.

The advice by the Prime Minister, the nomination by the Queen, and the election by the chapter are constitutional necessities, but the actual choice is made by the commission.
But … but … but… I saw that episode in Yes Prime Minister on how bishops were appointed. And the Appointments Commisioners all conspired to place the nominations in such a way that Paul Edidngton will select their choice. It was on TV - so it must be true.
 
But … but … but… I saw that episode in Yes Prime Minister on how bishops were appointed. And the Appointments Commisioners all conspired to place the nominations in such a way that Paul Edidngton will select their choice. It was on TV - so it must be true.
Are you trying to persuade me that they managed actually to pull the wool over Paul Eddington’s eyes? Surely not. Well, OK, if it was on TV.
 
But … but … but… I saw that episode in Yes Prime Minister on how bishops were appointed. And the Appointments Commisioners all conspired to place the nominations in such a way that Paul Edidngton will select their choice. It was on TV - so it must be true.
This is quite a thorough piece:

peterowen.org.uk/articles/choosing.html

There was a time when the Prime Minister got to choose between two names (the story is that Mrs Thatcher decided to ditch the commission’s recommended candidate in favour of their second choice for Archbishop of Canterbury, but no one, I think, knows if that is true). The latest restrictions on the Prime Minister are recent. Later than either Blair or Hacker, I think.
 
I understand that argument as regards his first wife. He wanted a son to continue his line, and thought she was the problem. (Turns out it was all in vain anyway) What about the rest of his wives, particularly the ones he killed? Kind of hard to defend Henry VIII on any moral basis.
An Anglican is no more obliged to defend Henry VIII than a Roman Catholic is obliged to defend the Borgias.
 
This is from Wikipedia, be that as it may:

“The church was organized after the American Revolution, when it separated from the Church of England whose clergy are required to swear allegiance to the British monarch as Supreme Governor of the Church of England,[10] and became the first Anglican Province outside the British Isles.[11]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States
 
This is quite a thorough piece:

peterowen.org.uk/articles/choosing.html

There was a time when the Prime Minister got to choose between two names (the story is that Mrs Thatcher decided to ditch the commission’s recommended candidate in favour of their second choice for Archbishop of Canterbury, but no one, I think, knows if that is true). The latest restrictions on the Prime Minister are recent. Later than either Blair or Hacker, I think.
The much maligned Gordon Brown changed the rules; he’s a member of the Church of Scotland.
 
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