Anglican/Episcapalian Questions

[BernadetteM]

I just read this one. More points.

As I said above, high/low church refers to different flavors of Anglicanism, and relates to churchmanship, primarily. High is more elaborate (vestments, candles, bells, chants, etc). Low is more simple. These two distinctions relate to two forms of Anglican doctrine; high church is normally on the Anglo-Catholic side. This implies an acceptance of more doctrine that would be shared with any Catholic Church: Marian doctrine, Real Presence, Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, auricular confession, etc). The opposite of this is more reformed Anglicanism, which sounds more protestant. These folks tend to be low church. Most Anglicans fall somewhere on the line between these two. I am a fairly strong Anglo-Catholic, for example. Some in my parish are distinctly more reformed in their view. As I have said, it takes a program to understand Anglicans.

The Real Presence is what you, as a Catholic (and I) believe about the Sacrament of the Eucharist; that it is, after the consecration, not bread and wine, but truly, really and substantially the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of Christ, as stated by the Council of Trent.

Anglican Use is a complicated topic. There are several AU churches in Texas, more than anywhere else. There are only roughly -7-8 of them and they are not generally intended to be permanent arrangements, but to assist groups of Anglicans who have converted (some folks do not agree with this definition). The two large AU churches in Texas are permanent, and very successful, too.

Anglicans who are not members of the RCC (that is, who have not converted) are not allowed to receive the sacraments at an AU RC church, any more than at any other RC church.

Anglican Use churches are formed when there is a perceived need for them. Generally they convert to another form of the Latin Rite, in a few years. They are not established to be a lure to Anglicans to convert, but to support a group of Anglicans who have converted. Such a parish relies on converted Anglican priests, who have been ordained in the RCC, under the Pastoral Provision. There is no provision to regularly provide appropriate priests, in succession to an AU parish.

GKC

GKC

We have gone over this several times before. Please contact an Anglican Use priest at an Anglican Use parish and assert that there is no provision to regularly provide appropriate priests, in succession to an AU parish. This is not accurate information. What happened at a couple parishes is not the norm. You can also ask the priest to explain why those two parishes closed or converted to the Latin Rite.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[gmcbroom]

When you say the Latin Rite are you referring to the EF or the NO rite? If it’s the EF then even though its the AU has changed thats still something unique. I’ve been to the NO rite churches and while they’re not bad it doesn’t speak to me the same. But again this posy is about the Anglican churches so lets talk Anglican.

 

[luckyfredsdad]

Again, you are very kind.

It is usually rendered, and attributed to Bill, as “Is there anyone on earth, from the Pope to Mao Tse Tung, who can be entirely certain that he is not an Episcopalian?”

 

[GKC]

GKC;5839749:

Again, you are very kind.

**It is a very amusing quote and I should think, on the face of it seems true! But in fact it is a gross error. Traditional Anglicans are those people who believe in the Revelation of Christ, recorded in Scripture, which intern are, completed, explained and interpreted by the Holy Fathers in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Traditional Anglicans believe that the Councils, which are in essence the College of Bishops are the magisterium of the Catholic Church! [re., S.Vincent of Lerins.]

For my own part as a Highchurchman, I think that the Churches of the Anglican Communion are now little more than ,liberal, protestant churches. [Arcd. Dec., of York. 1994.] and that the churches of the A/C are no more than neo Anglicans. I feel that the ancient faith is carried by the the Anglican Continuing Churches who still hold to the faith of the fathers! **

It seems to me that the Anglican Use group are simply Roman Catholics under another name.

The Anglican Use group are Roman Catholics, under that name. And now, that whole scenario is changing. Are you aware of the announcement from Cardinal Levada today? The TAC, a large international group of Continuing Anglican jurisdictions, who have been petitioning for some form of communion with Rome, some form of corporate reunion, without losing the Anglican particulars, have, after 10+ years, gotten a favorable reply. This is going to be interesting to watch.

GKC

 

[GKC]

GKC

We have gone over this several times before. Please contact an Anglican Use priest at an Anglican Use parish and assert that there is no provision to regularly provide appropriate priests, in succession to an AU parish. This is not accurate information. What happened at a couple parishes is not the norm. You can also ask the priest to explain why those two parishes closed or converted to the Latin Rite.

God Bless

Bernadette

It is not two parishes. It is most parishes, who were formerly AU, and either closed or shifted to NO.

But, as noted, the game is changed. The announcement today of the Personal Ordinariates, the opening of the Pastoral Provision world-wide, and the commitment to a structure within the seminaries to provide a continuing source of Anglican Use priests (and that is the key) changes everything. The reality of the AU situation before was that there was no method or commitment to ensure its continuing, hence, it largely did not continue, in any given parish. Now, it seems that it will be otherwise. And, of course, it is larger than merely the AU. It suggests the theoretical possibilty of establishing an Anglican sui juiris Church.

What the reality (as opposed to the theory) is now going to be will be driven by the new reality. It took a long time, bu it seems to me that Benedict is master in his House.

It will be a show to watch.

GKC

 

[luckyfredsdad]

the anglican use group are roman catholics, under that name. And now, that whole scenario is changing. Are you aware of the announcement from cardinal levada today? The tac, a large international group of continuing anglican jurisdictions, who have been petitioning for some form of communion with rome, some form of corporate reunion, without losing the anglican particulars, have, after 10+ years, gotten a favorable reply. This is going to be interesting to watch.

Gkc

**
I am well aware of the TAC and their fondness for Rome , I knew that a meeting was being held today and that some people expected an announcement to be made and it will be interesting! I have some friends who are TAC, priests and I’m disappointed in them for their obvious weakness! We have a problem in the Anglican Church, it isn’t going to be any better for the weaker bros and sisters who flee to Rome. For the most part, they are Anglican Catholics whose idea of Catholicity is ,Berettas, Incense, vestments and so on! They have done very little for some 60yrs but study Roman Catholicism and have given up on their own intellect. Prefering ,‘ready made,’ answers to 1700 yr old problems instead of doing a rethink. They were of very little use to the Anglican Church,I hope it will serve them better to take their problems abroad, as they do say!**

The real question is why were they in the Anglican Church at all? Anglicanism is Catholicism in an older more traditional way that dates back to the funndamentals of the first six hundred years with out the additions of Rome. Hearking back to a scriptural genesis rather than medieval additions. They are giving all this up? For what??

 

[GKC]

The announcement is made. Go and seek it, it is interesting.

GKC

**
I am well aware of the TAC and their fondness for Rome , I knew that a meeting was being held today and that some people expected an announcement to be made and it will be interesting! I have some friends who are TAC, priests and I’m disappointed in them for their obvious weakness! We have a problem in the Anglican Church, it isn’t going to be any better for the weaker bros and sisters who flee to Rome. For the most part, they are Anglican Catholics whose idea of Catholicity is ,Berettas, Incense, vestments and so on! They have done very little for some 60yrs but study Roman Catholicism and have given up on their own intellect. Prefering ,‘ready made,’ answers to 1700 yr old problems instead of doing a rethink. They were of very little use to the Anglican Church,I hope it will serve them better to take their problems abroad, as they do say!**

 

[humble_maid]

The announcement is made. Go and seek it, it is interesting.

GKC

Can someone please give me the site relating to this issue?

Thank you.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Can someone please give me the site relating to this issue?

Thank you.

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/10/romes_new_home_for_anglicans.html?hpid=topnews

God Bless!

 

[BernadetteM]

**
I am well aware of the TAC and their fondness for Rome , I knew that a meeting was being held today and that some people expected an announcement to be made and it will be interesting! I have some friends who are TAC, priests and I’m disappointed in them for their obvious weakness! We have a problem in the Anglican Church, it isn’t going to be any better for the weaker bros and sisters who flee to Rome. For the most part, they are Anglican Catholics whose idea of Catholicity is ,Berettas, Incense, vestments and so on! They have done very little for some 60yrs but study Roman Catholicism and have given up on their own intellect. Prefering ,‘ready made,’ answers to 1700 yr old problems instead of doing a rethink. They were of very little use to the Anglican Church,I hope it will serve them better to take their problems abroad, as they do say!**

I have no idea of what TAC members and their priests believe, I know from reading blogs that many were not going along with the wishes of the leaders of TAC to become Catholics. I believe that many members were not Anglo Catholics and even many Anglo Catholics do not want to be united to Rome. I was a member of one of the original parishes who petitioned Rome and their petition was granted and the Pastoral Provision was established. These priests knew exactly what it was to be Catholic and many sacrificed much, it was not the incense etc. it was their belief in the truth of the Catholic Church. As I said I have no idea about the priests in TAC. But who are we to judge others in their desires to be Catholics.

When this all begin I was part of of Anglo Catholic parish and we were split three ways, some stayed and are now part of a continuing Anglilcan group, some went Orthodox and the rest became Catholic.

I don’t understand how some continuing Anglicans can say they know what the promises that were made to the priests who actually helped establish the Pastoral Provison were when we all know that Rome is very secret in their dealings. There are people who claim to know how and why certain parishes were closed, but the AU priests who are in close contact with their Bishops have no knowledge. I have read several posts in this vain that individuals know more than the clergy in this respect.

You said that it was a weakness for these priests to go to Rome, since I don’t know these priests I would never accuse them of weakness, maybe they are the stronger of the priests, not the weaker, because they truely believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded. Let us not judge others motives. If in fact if some are not going to Rome for the right reasons, because of a deep conviction that this is where God wants them, they will soon find that out and also it is not an easy road to take. There may be many who are not accepted as they will be looked at as individuals and each case will be independent of the other.

I am glad that you are happy as an Anglican, please just try to let our Lord take care of those whom you say are leaving the Anglican churches for Rome. I also know many of AU priests and they are not weak and are very strong Catholics.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[GKC]

I’m not saying what any promises were to any of the AU priests. I’m saying what happened, and what the system was organized to force to happen. And all that is changed now. Personal Ordinariates, and most esp. the new seminarian system providing for a formal, systematic supply of priests to existing parishes. And all not subject to the local Ordinary’s whim. A new world.

The TAC is not monolithic on the reunion. It was always top-down driven, and I know a couple of parishes that have left, within the past year, as they thought the idea might actually come to pass. But, in the end, I would expect a large number of the TAC to join. It certainly won’t be a surprise to them, they been talking of the possibility for years.

Fascinating.

GKC

I have no idea of what TAC members and their priests believe, I know from reading blogs that many were not going along with the wishes of the leaders of TAC to become Catholics. I believe that many members were not Anglo Catholics and even many Anglo Catholics do not want to be united to Rome. I was a member of one of the original parishes who petitioned Rome and their petition was granted and the Pastoral Provision was established. These priests knew exactly what it was to be Catholic and many sacrificed much, it was not the incense etc. it was their belief in the truth of the Catholic Church. As I said I have no idea about the priests in TAC. But who are we to judge others in their desires to be Catholics.

When this all begin I was part of of Anglo Catholic parish and we were split three ways, some stayed and are now part of a continuing Anglilcan group, some went Orthodox and the rest became Catholic.

I don’t understand how some continuing Anglicans can say they know what the promises that were made to the priests who actually helped establish the Pastoral Provison were when we all know that Rome is very secret in their dealings. There are people who claim to know how and why certain parishes were closed, but the AU priests who are in close contact with their Bishops have no knowledge. I have read several posts in this vain that individuals know more than the clergy in this respect.

You said that it was a weakness for these priests to go to Rome, since I don’t know these priests I would never accuse them of weakness, maybe they are the stronger of the priests, not the weaker, because they truely believe that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded. Let us not judge others motives. If in fact if some are not going to Rome for the right reasons, because of a deep conviction that this is where God wants them, they will soon find that out and also it is not an easy road to take. There may be many who are not accepted as they will be looked at as individuals and each case will be independent of the other.

I am glad that you are happy as an Anglican, please just try to let our Lord take care of those whom you say are leaving the Anglican churches for Rome. I also know many of AU priests and they are not weak and are very strong Catholics.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[gmcbroom]

It is indeed fascinating.

Here’s a question I know that some batismal practices are accepted from different churches…ie the Lutherans Baptism is a Triden rite (sorry I butchered what the name was but the moral is the Vatican accepts that baptism because its similar to theirs). In short say I was a baptised Lutheran and wanted to convert to Catholism, I would still have to go through RCIA, but I wouldn’t have to be baptised again because Rome accepts it as valid. Does the Anglican church have a similar baptismal rite? This could be an issue that those in TAC may have to go through.

As for an Anglican suri iuris? That seems likely after all, I think there are 22 currently, whats one more.

Fascinating.

 

[GKC]

It is indeed fascinating.

Here’s a question I know that some batismal practices are accepted from different churches…ie the Lutherans Baptism is a Triden rite (sorry I butchered what the name was but the moral is the Vatican accepts that baptism because its similar to theirs). In short say I was a baptised Lutheran and wanted to convert to Catholism, I would still have to go through RCIA, but I wouldn’t have to be baptised again because Rome accepts it as valid. Does the Anglican church have a similar baptismal rite? This could be an issue that those in TAC may have to go through.

As for an Anglican suri iuris? That seems likely after all, I think there are 22 currently, whats one more.

Fascinating.

The RCC accepts any baptism with water and the Trinitarian formula, and that is the Lutheran way. It is also the Anglican way, and normally it would be an infant baptism, for the remission of sins, per the Creed.

As to an Anglican sui iuris Church (I think there are 23) that would be earth-shaking.

GKC

 

[manualman]

… I have some friends who are TAC, priests and I’m disappointed in them for their obvious weakness! We have a problem in the Anglican Church, it isn’t going to be any better for the weaker bros and sisters who flee to Rome. For the most part, they are Anglican Catholics whose idea of Catholicity is ,Berettas, Incense, vestments and so on! They have done very little for some 60yrs but study Roman Catholicism and have given up on their own intellect. Prefering ,‘ready made,’ answers to 1700 yr old problems instead of doing a rethink. They were of very little use to the Anglican Church,I hope it will serve them better to take their problems abroad, as they do say!

You want fries with that sneer sir?

Perhaps it occurred to them that rethinking christianity from scratch has been a disaster within three generations in every community in which it has been tried. Maybe they’ve figured out there could be a reason for that. Nah, they must just be weaklings.

 

[humble_maid]

newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/10/romes_new_home_for_anglicans.html?hpid=topnews

God Bless!

Thank you and God Bless you too. Do you know if this will have any effects on the Episcopalian churches?

 

[gmcbroom]

I believe it would affect them. Well, atleast those that have current issues within that Anglican structure. The High Church groups with issues in there current structure, may just cross over en masse if it works well. Especially if they describe themselves as Anglican Catholics as is, they may research then jump for it. The real question is will they be true Anglican Catholics, as I’m joining to be a Maronite Catholic? or will they become Roman Catholics and believe me there is a difference. My church has been in existance since its beginning at Antioch, with it own unique Liturgy and spirituality. We have never broken with the Pope, however, we have been heavily Latinized over the centuries. If the Anglican Catholics can accept their traditions having slight adjustments, then I see no reason why they wouldn’t come over to truly be Anglican Catholics. I hope they do come over if their heart leads them here. If they prefer the Anglican Communion then they should stay there. In short, can’t we all get along?

 

[jmcrae]

When you say the Latin Rite are you referring to the EF or the NO rite? If it’s the EF then even though its the AU has changed thats still something unique. I’ve been to the NO rite churches and while they’re not bad it doesn’t speak to me the same. But again this posy is about the Anglican churches so lets talk Anglican.

No, no, he is not referring to the Liturgy, but rather, to the Rite. The Latin Rite is all Catholic Christians loyal to the Pope who adhere to Western (Latin-based) culture, regardless of which Liturgy they prefer.

 

[Justy90]

Anglicans are in England and Episcapalians are Anglicans not in England. Both have the British Royal Crown as the head of their church. The King or Queen names the Archbishop of Canterbury. After breaking away from Rome and the Holy See, Henry VIII and Thomas Cranmer, with the help of a few others, went through and made changes to the mass, introduced new teachings, etc.

It didn’t help. It just further muddied the waters and spread unture rumors and stereotypes about Anglicans. You should do some much needed research and study on Anglicans before formulating a debacle like this again.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Thank you and God Bless you too. Do you know if this will have any effects on the Episcopalian churches?

Hi Humble Maid,

I am going to tip-toe carefully through this question. I honestly think that if you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is where the Holy Spirit is leading you, you should NOT wait for a group to come with you. If the Holy Spirit was guiding me to become a Roman Catholic, I would be jumping over the fence and not looking back to see if anyone was following me to the nearest Roman Catholic Church…

God Bless!

From The Episcopal Church on the recent statement from the Vatican–

We have received the Vatican’s statement and the joint statement signed by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of Westminster. We are in dialogue with the Archbishop’s office and will, in the coming days, continue to explore the full implications of this in our ecumenical relations.

The announcement reflects what the Roman Catholic Church, through its acceptance of Anglican rite parishes, has been doing for some years more informally.

We in the Episcopal Church continue to look to the Holy Spirit, who guides us in understanding of what it means to be the Church in the Anglican Tradition.

We continue to remain in dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church through participation in the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Consultation (ARCIC) and the Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue in the USA (ARC-USA).

The Episcopal Church is a member of the worldwide Anglican Communion, and works together with other Provinces and with our ecumenical and interfaith partners to promote God’s reign on earth.

Bishop Christopher Epting
Deputy for Ecumenical and Interreligious Relations
The Episcopal Church
October 20, 2009
episcopalchurch.typepad.com/episcope/2009/10/from-the-episcopal-church-on-the-recent-statement-from-the-vatican.html

 

[GKC]

It didn’t help. It just further muddied the waters and spread unture rumors and stereotypes about Anglicans. You should do some much needed research and study on Anglicans before formulating a debacle like this again.

Be aware, Justy, that you can easily find Anglicans who affirm transubstantiation, in the terms of Trent, Session XIII.

The issue of Anglican orders and the Papal Bull Apostolicae Curae, is a complicated and sad one, but merely responding with rhetoric is not a good way to proceed. If you like, I can recommend some reading that would give the Anglican view on this. It requires an understanding of what constitutes a valid sacrament, as is common belief among RCs and many Anglicans.

I often remind RCs that there is a variety among Anglicans. No one description is sufficient. Occasionally I remind Anglicans of it, too.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus