Anglican Ink article: Diversity, not Jesus, saves says Presiding Bishop

[IgnatianPhilo]

If the official Greek Orthodox Church apostasized like the Episcopal Church, and splinter groups showed up that remained true to Orthodox doctrine, wouldn’t you join or remain with others who have like thinking first?

Depends, is that greek church orthodox church ordaining openly homosexual (practicing) women and men who say Paul was a sexist bigot who didn’t know “love?” I think i would be the first to say “thats not orthodox, those guys gotta go.” Being of course the humble layman that I am.

So what do we do then? I can’t stand the PC leadership of the western official Anglican churches either, but it’s because they’re not true to the Anglican faith. Yes, many are apostate, but where are we supposed to go? If there was credible Continuing Anglican diocese where I lived I would join it. But there is not. There is however a number of orthodox C of E parishes, and we are under alternative episcopal oversight. Yes it is not ideal. But it’s the best we can do under the circumstances.

Why not do what Saint Maximos the confessor did? Abstain from open communion with those churches which teach these things. If nothing is done and this same passive attitude continues there won’t be a conservative side to the anglican church any more.

 

[GKC]

Not all anglicans are doing something about it either.

True.

Motley, them Anglicans

GKC

 

[commenter]

Just a reminder, while it’s interesting to blog about this issue, consider the agony many sincere Christians are going through because of this presiding bishop, and the power structure in her denomination. We are talking about thoughtful, prayerful clergy and laity who have kept the faith, but are appalled by what has happened in recent years. I am one of those people who’s quicker with a post than a prayer. But prayer makes possible the best possible outcomes - the conversion of this woman, the conversion of her fellow “leaders”, the restoration of true doctrine within the TEC, or at least, the consolation of those hurt by the direction of the TEC.

 

[GKC]

Just a reminder, while it’s interesting to blog about this issue, consider the agony many sincere Christians are going through because of this presiding bishop, and the power structure in her denomination. We are talking about thoughtful, prayerful clergy and laity who have kept the faith, but are appalled by what has happened in recent years. I am one of those people who’s quicker with a post than a prayer. But prayer makes possible the best possible outcomes - the conversion of this woman, the conversion of her fellow “leaders”, the restoration of true doctrine within the TEC, or at least, the consolation of those hurt by the direction of the TEC.

Amen.

GKC

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Depends, is that greek church orthodox church ordaining openly homosexual (practicing) women and men who say Paul was a sexist bigot who didn’t know “love?” I think i would be the first to say “thats not orthodox, those guys gotta go.” Being of course the humble layman that I am.

The point is, if the Greek Orthodox Church suddenly apostasized, you wouldn’t simply convert to Catholicism, would you? You would find an alternative Greek Orthodox parish that holds true to the faith. There are some Catholics out there who believe the official Roman Catholic Church has apostasized, yet they pursue what they consider to be Catholic options - alternative parishes that continue in the Tridentine Mass with older rites. That is what traditional Anglicans are attempting to do. It’s not fair to simply expect them to reject their whole tradition outright.

Why not do what Saint Maximos the confessor did? Abstain from open communion with those churches which teach these things. If nothing is done and this same passive attitude continues there won’t be a conservative side to the anglican church any more.

Indifferently just stated that there are plenty of parishes in the United Kingdom that reject some of the reformist attitudes of Anglicanism and pursue traditional doctrine. And currently, the Church of England has allowed these parishes to operate without interference. So why should devout Anglicans like him leave when they have this option?

 

[commenter]

Indifferently just stated that there are plenty of parishes in the United Kingdom that reject some of the reformist attitudes of Anglicanism and pursue traditional doctrine. And currently, the Church of England has allowed these parishes to operate without interference. So why should devout Anglicans like him leave when they have this option?

Christians have a responsibility to those who come after us. Even if the C of E is not yet as bad as the TEC, it will be. Even if problems of the C of E (or TEC) have not yet come to my neighborhood parish, they will, perhaps after I’m gone. But while I am still alive, I have a responsibility to build something else, that will evangelize and offer orthodox doctrine for my children’s generation. In my opinion the corrupting trend is irreversible in the TEC, at least, not sure about C of E. By giving money and strengthening orthodox parishes within a corrupting denomination, I am still indirectly supporting that denomination, over the long run. I may be intending to support the good pastor who is there now, but what kind of pastor will they send there for my childrens generation?
There is an alternative! We may be annoying, arrogant, fat, lazy, hypocritical, filled with half hearted sinners like me. We may not often live up to our doctrine, but you know what our doctrine is, and you know what it will be in our grandchildren’s lifetime. It won’t bend to fit the media.

 

[GKC]

Christians have a responsibility to those who come after us. Even if the C of E is not yet as bad as the TEC, it will be. Even if problems of the C of E (or TEC) have not yet come to my neighborhood parish, they will, perhaps after I’m gone. But while I am still alive, I have a responsibility to build something else, that will evangelize and offer orthodox doctrine for my children’s generation. In my opinion the corrupting trend is irreversible in the TEC, at least, not sure about C of E. By giving money and strengthening orthodox parishes within a corrupting denomination, I am still indirectly supporting that denomination, over the long run. I may be intending to support the good pastor who is there now, but what kind of pastor will they send there for my childrens generation?
There is an alternative! We may be annoying, arrogant, fat, lazy, hypocritical, filled with half hearted sinners like me. We may not often live up to our doctrine, but you know what our doctrine is, and you know what it will be in our grandchildren’s lifetime. It won’t bend to fit the media.

This.

GKC

 

[manualman]

When you ask this question, in this venue, I can almost guarantee the likely answer.

GKC

You mean get poped?

Go on, hardly hurts at all!

 

[GKC]

You mean get poped?

Go on, hardly hurts at all!

I certainly know folks who say so.

GKC

 

[jwinch2]

Christians have a responsibility to those who come after us. Even if the C of E is not yet as bad as the TEC, it will be. Even if problems of the C of E (or TEC) have not yet come to my neighborhood parish, they will, perhaps after I’m gone. But while I am still alive, I have a responsibility to build something else, that will evangelize and offer orthodox doctrine for my children’s generation. In my opinion the corrupting trend is irreversible in the TEC, at least, not sure about C of E. By giving money and strengthening orthodox parishes within a corrupting denomination, I am still indirectly supporting that denomination, over the long run. I may be intending to support the good pastor who is there now, but what kind of pastor will they send there for my childrens generation?
There is an alternative! We may be annoying, arrogant, fat, lazy, hypocritical, filled with half hearted sinners like me. We may not often live up to our doctrine, but you know what our doctrine is, and you know what it will be in our grandchildren’s lifetime. It won’t bend to fit the media.

Agreed. This is a prime example of what happens when those who are supposed to care for their flocks do not see themselves as caretakers of what has been handed on to them, but rather as having license to bring things up to date, or to put their own personal perspective on them. Pride and arrogance are as popular today as they ever were.

Many Anglicans have been of the opinion that they were the third leg/branch of the Apostolic Faith, the other two being the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy. While this was never accurate since without valid priesthood and sacraments this is impossible, it did have some merit in that they had held on to at least the most basic understandings of the Faith and also on issues of morality. If some reconciliation could be made in terms of the Papacy and marriage, reunion was not that far fetched. 50 years ago, this was a reasonable possibility in many ways. However, that ship has sailed.

Unfortunately, we are rapidly approaching the point with Anglicans as well as other mainline Protestants that there will be little in the way of common ground to work with from an ecumenical standpoint. As they shift further and further away from the Apostolic Faith from a standpoint of theology, as well as modernizing their teachings on moral issues, it becomes harder to work for a reunion of Christ’s mystical body. We are already at the point that the majority of Anglican groups are unrecognizable to what they were just 50 years ago. In another 20, it will be even worse, and will make it all but impossible to seek common ground.

We are not alone in this issue. Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church recently told the Archbishop of Canterbury that if Anglicans embraced the ordaining of women bishops, talks towards the restoration of unity would cease. blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100209298/russian-orthodox-tell-archbishop-of-canterbury-ordain-women-bishops-and-you-can-forget-about-unity/

At this point, the best chance for reunion seems to be through the Anglican Ordinariates and perhaps down the road, with those who are going towards Orthodoxy through the Western Rite Vicariates. Those Anglicans who have a mind towards the tradition of their faith will likely have to seek out one of those two paths if they wish to have anything remotely close to what the Church of England was in the past.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Christians have a responsibility to those who come after us. Even if the C of E is not yet as bad as the TEC, it will be. Even if problems of the C of E (or TEC) have not yet come to my neighborhood parish, they will, perhaps after I’m gone. But while I am still alive, I have a responsibility to build something else, that will evangelize and offer orthodox doctrine for my children’s generation. In my opinion the corrupting trend is irreversible in the TEC, at least, not sure about C of E. By giving money and strengthening orthodox parishes within a corrupting denomination, I am still indirectly supporting that denomination, over the long run. I may be intending to support the good pastor who is there now, but what kind of pastor will they send there for my childrens generation?
There is an alternative! We may be annoying, arrogant, fat, lazy, hypocritical, filled with half hearted sinners like me. We may not often live up to our doctrine, but you know what our doctrine is, and you know what it will be in our grandchildren’s lifetime. It won’t bend to fit the media.

This isn’t true. Pious, conservative Episcopalians supported the Church in South Carolina for years and just recently the Diocese of Upper South Carolina formally seceded from the Episcopal Church. This “building” of something else occurred within the conservative parishes. They were subsumed, they weren’t overwhelmed, they were strong enough to make it on their own.

But according to you, an Anglican should convert to Catholicism. What sense does that make? They should give up what they’ve believed because Catholicism hasn’t yet blessed gay unions?

Are sedevacantists, then, correct in breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and worshiping in their own parishes, since they believe Rome has gone astray? If I grew up in an Anglican tradition, and believed in that tradition, I’m not giving up because times are tough. I would need actual convincing that Catholicism was the fullness of the truth.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The point is, if the Greek Orthodox Church suddenly apostasized, you wouldn’t simply convert to Catholicism, would you? You would find an alternative Greek Orthodox parish that holds true to the faith. There are some Catholics out there who believe the official Roman Catholic Church has apostasized, yet they pursue what they consider to be Catholic options - alternative parishes that continue in the Tridentine Mass with older rites. That is what traditional Anglicans are attempting to do. It’s not fair to simply expect them to reject their whole tradition outright.

I also would do more than watch a gradual corruption within the church, that being said I don’t think (unlike the anglican communion) we will ever have priests or Bishops who deny Jesus’s ressurection and ordain openly practicing homosexuals to the priesthood. There is a problem in the anglican communion which I think will seriously damage it if left alone, if churches like Saint Mathew’s here in Auckland continue to exist it won’t help Christianity in the slightest, although I do like the fact the anglican church is fighting against an attempt to forced to ordain an openly practicing homosexual to the priesthood by the government here, although I gotta imagine once gay marriage comes into law here they will not hesitate to ordain him unfortunately.

I

ndifferently just stated that there are plenty of parishes in the United Kingdom that reject some of the reformist attitudes of Anglicanism and pursue traditional doctrine. And currently, the Church of England has allowed these parishes to operate without interference. So why should devout Anglicans like him leave when they have this option?

I think these churches should make it known what is being taught in some anglican churches is not Christian and should not be in communion with such churches, thats just my stance. I respect conservative anglicans enough but I don’t see any efforts to deal with this, just this passive “meh” responce. By all means show me wrong that Liberalism is being defeated in the anglican church and I will rescind what I have said.

 

[GKC]

This isn’t true. Pious, conservative Episcopalians supported the Church in South Carolina for years and just recently the Diocese of Upper South Carolina formally seceded from the Episcopal Church. This “building” of something else occurred within the conservative parishes. They were subsumed, they weren’t overwhelmed, they were strong enough to make it on their own.

But according to you, an Anglican should convert to Catholicism. What sense does that make? They should give up what they’ve believed because Catholicism hasn’t yet blessed gay unions?

Are sedevacantists, then, correct in breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and worshiping in their own parishes, since they believe Rome has gone astray? If I grew up in an Anglican tradition, and believed in that tradition, I’m not giving up because times are tough. I would need actual convincing that Catholicism was the fullness of the truth.

The Diocese of South Carolina thus became the 5th diocese to leave the Episcopal Church.

GKC

 

[commenter]

This isn’t true. Pious, conservative Episcopalians supported the Church in South Carolina for years and just recently the Diocese of Upper South Carolina formally seceded from the Episcopal Church. This “building” of something else occurred within the conservative parishes. They were subsumed, they weren’t overwhelmed, they were strong enough to make it on their own.

But according to you, an Anglican should convert to Catholicism. What sense does that make? They should give up what they’ve believed because Catholicism hasn’t yet blessed gay unions?

Are sedevacantists, then, correct in breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and worshiping in their own parishes, since they believe Rome has gone astray? If I grew up in an Anglican tradition, and believed in that tradition, I’m not giving up because times are tough. I would need actual convincing that Catholicism was the fullness of the truth.

My post was only in response to a poster who expressed frustration with the status quo, asking for suggestions. I offered one.
I bless anyone called by God to worship and ministry where they are, whether it be in the C of E, TEC, a Continuing Anglican, or ACNA. I endorse the earlier poster in the C of E seeking suggestions, I endorse the Christians in South Carolina wherever their church journey leads them, and I certainly endorse you as you rightly respond to the Holy Spirit, not some stranger like me on the Internet. Believing Christians
need to support each other in all churches. Yes, times are tough for Catholics and everyone else. I admire you for not giving up, I give up on the average twice a decade. Hang in there! Let us pray for each other.

 

[Izdaari]

You mean get poped?

Go on, hardly hurts at all!

Though Schori is far too Spong-like for my taste, I’m not yet desperate enough for that solution. Nor am I desperate enough to consider conservative Anglicanism or Eastern Orthodoxy. That’s because I like the TEC being kinda liberal, having fled AoG because it was far too conservative. I just don’t like it being really extreme liberal. And I think that’s the position many, maybe even most, TEC members find themselves in.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

My post was only in response to a poster who expressed frustration with the status quo, asking for suggestions. I offered one.
I bless anyone called by God to worship and ministry where they are, whether it be in the C of E, TEC, a Continuing Anglican, or ACNA. I endorse the earlier poster in the C of E seeking suggestions, I endorse the Christians in South Carolina wherever their church journey leads them, and I certainly endorse you as you rightly respond to the Holy Spirit, not some stranger like me on the Internet. Believing Christians
need to support each other in all churches. Yes, times are tough for Catholics and everyone else. I admire you for not giving up, I give up on the average twice a decade. Hang in there! Let us pray for each other.

Haha I should probably clarify that I am not in the Anglican tradition XD. I’m just stating that if I were, I would fight more to keep a continuing movement of the tradition than abandon it altogether.

I think these churches should make it known what is being taught in some anglican churches is not Christian and should not be in communion with such churches, thats just my stance. I respect conservative anglicans enough but I don’t see any efforts to deal with this, just this passive “meh” responce. By all means show me wrong that Liberalism is being defeated in the anglican church and I will rescind what I have said.

Well if these conservative parishes can operate independently, and have staunch beliefs in contradiction with the more liberal ones, I would imagine that a negation of communion is perfectly plausible and has probably occurred. After all, if you reject the notion of women priests, you probably wouldn’t give Holy Communion to a woman who claimed to be such. But of course, one cannot always know what is in the heads of some of the parishioners. As rare as it probably is, given that Orthodoxy largely operates in more conservative nations, I imagine there is the silent worshiper who agrees with such heretical beliefs privately, yet continues to receive.

 

[commenter]

From what I have read, the leaders of ACNA and the Continuum seem committed to solid doctrine and prayer. But in 1950 wouldn’t the leaders of TEC have been equally committed to solid doctrine and prayer? I assume ACNA and the Continuum are vigilant as to religion class and seminaries, to ensure the future, relying on the Holy Spirit. But wouldn’t TEC have done the same thing back then? Wouldn’t TEC leaders have prayed for guidance too? If ACNA and the Continuum use the same steering wheel the TEC used, why would they expect to avoid a TEC-type wreck down the road? You might say “If my new church ever goes bad, I’ll jump to a newer church”. But how do you know that you, yourself, would notice “badness”? The scary thing is that a couple million decent laity, clergy, bishops, gradually adapted to heresy as if it was natural. There was no sudden change, just a few changes each year, different Biblical interpretations next year, adjustments in liturgy the following year, etc. etc. Over a generation it might seem a horrendous change, but a little year by year, 2 million people gradually changed, so they accepted it. Most of them changed along with the TEC. It is possible ACNA and the Continuum have a different kind of process or guidance that was unavailable to the TEC in 1950. ACNA and the Continuum get collaboration from oversees provinces, but so could the TEC in 1950.
C. S. Lewis thought the Anglican Communion didn’t need a Magisterium because a self correcting balance of theologians, bishops and others could guide it. I’d love to ask his opinion today.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

From what I have read, the leaders of ACNA and the Continuum seem committed to solid doctrine and prayer. But in 1950 wouldn’t the leaders of TEC have been equally committed to solid doctrine and prayer? I assume ACNA and the Continuum are vigilant as to religion class and seminaries, to ensure the future, relying on the Holy Spirit. But wouldn’t TEC have done the same thing back then? Wouldn’t TEC leaders have prayed for guidance too? If ACNA and the Continuum use the same steering wheel the TEC used, why would they expect to avoid a TEC-type wreck down the road? You might say “If my new church ever goes bad, I’ll jump to a newer church”. But how do you know that you, yourself, would notice “badness”? The scary thing is that a couple million decent laity, clergy, bishops, gradually adapted to heresy as if it was natural. There was no sudden change, just a few changes each year, different Biblical interpretations next year, adjustments in liturgy the following year, etc. etc. Over a generation it might seem a horrendous change, but a little year by year, 2 million people gradually changed, so they accepted it. Most of them changed along with the TEC. It is possible ACNA and the Continuum have a different kind of process or guidance that was unavailable to the TEC in 1950. ACNA and the Continuum get collaboration from oversees provinces, but so could the TEC in 1950.
C. S. Lewis thought the Anglican Communion didn’t need a Magisterium because a self correcting balance of theologians, bishops and others could guide it. I’d love to ask his opinion today.

The same can be said of Catholic jurisdictions around the world.

Many even go against the direct will of the Magisterium. People are rebellious, and the Magisterium, while effective, is no guarantee that people will not apostasize or abuse the faith. In Italy, there was a recent funeral for Don Gallo, a radical, *cattocomunista *(“Catholic-Communist”) who repeatedly railed against the Catholic Church and urged reform on the stance on homosexuality and transsexuality.

At his funeral, one of the most notorious transsexual Communists, Vladimir Luxuria (a former member of Parliament), was given Communion by one of Italy’s head Cardinals, Bagnasco. So while the Catholic Church certainly hasn’t fallen to the level of the Episcopal Church, enough corrupt jurisdictions are out there.

 

[aemcpa]

That’s because I like the TEC being kinda liberal.

Must be nice to be able to worship a God made in your own image.

 

[commenter]

The same can be said of Catholic jurisdictions around the world.

Many even go against the direct will of the Magisterium. People are rebellious, and the Magisterium, while effective, is no guarantee that people will not apostasize or abuse the faith. In Italy, there was a recent funeral for Don Gallo, a radical, *cattocomunista *(“Catholic-Communist”) who repeatedly railed against the Catholic Church and urged reform on the stance on homosexuality and transsexuality.

At his funeral, one of the most notorious transsexual Communists, Vladimir Luxuria (a former member of Parliament), was given Communion by one of Italy’s head Cardinals, Bagnasco. So while the Catholic Church certainly hasn’t fallen to the level of the Episcopal Church, enough corrupt jurisdictions are out there.

The percentage of Christians who dissent with the Magisterium varies from time to time. Dissent was probably highest in the time of Arias. The Reformation leaders followed the Magisterium on most things, both doctrine (such as the Trinity) and, especially, the Canon of the New Testament. Today, while some denominations like the TEC and ELCA move farther from the Magisterium, others continue to follow the Magisterium, though they may not realize it. The Magisterium, and its New Testament Canon, continues to be the implicit standard against which every other Christianity is measured. Even fundamentalists who denounce the papacy (unwittingly) affirm the Magisterium when they renounce the bible quoting Jehovah’s Witnesses who moved too far from the standard - the Magisterium). Sola Scriptura Christians criticize the Mormons for adding books to “The 27”; (The Magisterium was actually the agent that declared the canon closed). The Magisterium is authoritative even if government, media, public opinion polls, or 99% of Catholics or Protestants dissent. Its authority is more evident now, observe what happens when people move very far away from it (TEC, the cults, etc).