Anglican Issues with the Catholic Church

[GKC]

Thanks very much. The information is very helpful. I have to admit, I was confirmed too quickly in the Episcopal Church. I needed to learn a great deal more about its history. A lesson learned the hard way!

GKC, if I may be so bold, what was it that caused you to leave the
APCK? Thanks again. Peace

I didn’t exactly leave it. My son in law graduated from their seminary, and was ordained through the APCK. But my parish later realigned with another Continuing Anglican jurisdiction. Shifting and realigning is the favorite past-time of Continuing Anglicans. They do it continually.

GKC

 

[The_Dweller]

I didn’t exactly leave it. My son in law graduated from their seminary, and was ordained through the APCK. But my parish later realigned with another Continuing Anglican jurisdiction. Shifting and realigning is the favorite past-time of Continuing Anglicans. They do it continually.

GKC

I see. Would this happen to be one of the parishes that Bishop Rocco Florenza took with him to the ACA, by chance? Just curious.

 

[GKC]

I see. Would this happen to be one of the parishes that Bishop Rocco Florenza took with him to the ACA, by chance? Just curious.

Nope. Happened before that.

GKC

 

[c659smith]

Just a few comments which I hope you will take in the cordial spirit in which they are intended.

Perhaps you missed the recent press release from the Vatican, which said that Muslims now outnumber Catholics.

As far as abortion, divorce, and homosexual lifestyles, Catholics, much to my dismay, are involved in these as well.
The big difference is, the Anglican Church approves of and, on occasion, celebrates these lifestyles.

You are absolutely correct, from what I’ve read, that more Catholics attend church than Anglicans. Unfortunately, more Muslims attend mosque in England than Catholics and Anglicans combined.

As for Tony Blair, yes, he is now Catholic, but very recently participated in an abortion rights fundraiser.

Peace be with you!

As far as abortion, divorce, and homosexual lifestyles, Catholics, much to my dismay, are involved in these as well.
The big difference is, the Anglican Church approves of and, on occasion, celebrates these lifestyles.

The Catholic Church does not approve of these and are grave sins as well as abominations which takes Catholics out of Communion with the Church.

As for Tony Blair, yes, he is now Catholic, but very recently participated in an abortion rights fundraiser.

The info. you have was started by a British tabloid and later retracted by the general press. I think first put out by the Baltimore Sun

The Anglican churches that celebrates and approves of these things are out of Communion with Christ, I am sure you will agree.

As for population statistics the United Nations compiled the data on the Muslim population while the Catholic Church compiles the data on it’s own. I do not know how much validity I would put to the United Nations numbers.

But this is the year of evangelization for the Church so we will see if any head way next year on souls saved.

 

[The_Dweller]

c659smith,

You’re right, I was partially mistaken on the Blair story. It was not a pro-abortion fundraiser, it was a pro-homosexual fundraiser. You can find the article on lifesitenews.com.

As far as the sinful lifestyles, the Anglican Church officially disapproves of them as well, and that is why the church is being torn apart between North America and Europe v. Africa, Asia, and South America.

I hardly believe anything the U.N. says, but, unfortunately, they’re right about this. The replacement rate for a population is 2.1 children per family, and the Christian countries are falling far below this, particularly in Europe. The Muslim population, on the other hand, is growing very fast. You can read about it, if you wish, in Mark Steyn’s book “America Alone”. The numbers for the future look bleak.

I certainly hope that, as you say, there will be a great many souls converted this year.

 

[c659smith]

c659smith,

You’re right, I was partially mistaken on the Blair story. It was not a pro-abortion fundraiser, it was a pro-homosexual fundraiser. You can find the article on lifesitenews.com.

As far as the sinful lifestyles, the Anglican Church officially disapproves of them as well, and that is why the church is being torn apart between North America and Europe v. Africa, Asia, and South America.

I hardly believe anything the U.N. says, but, unfortunately, they’re right about this. The replacement rate for a population is 2.1 children per family, and the Christian countries are falling far below this, particularly in Europe. The Muslim population, on the other hand, is growing very fast. You can read about it, if you wish, in Mark Steyn’s book “America Alone”. The numbers for the future look bleak.

I certainly hope that, as you say, there will be a great many souls converted this year.

 

[thirdn6]

I know there is strength in numbers, so they say, but is it really a factor when someone is considering conversion? Is it more important to focus on the teachings of the church than counting the memberships? On spirituality rather than looking at somebody else’s misgivings? Not to FALSELY judge others?

To search the truths passed over to us and not only truths that are acceptable to one’s self? Valid sacraments? Valid Holy Eucharist? Forgiveness of sins? Are these available from any other denominations they call churches?

An informed decision will be a good decision. God bless you The Dweller…

---

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 +

 

[c659smith]

c659smith:
I agree with the Muslim population challenges esspecially in Europe but think the population for this group is beginning to shrink drastically as they become more westernized and their losing world opinion of their tactics in become or die in many of the Islamic countries and cultures.

If freed to practice Religion many I believe would leave the Islamic faith but for financial, quality of life, and survival many convert or stay Muslim. Try to preach Christianity in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,etc…

Their practices on forcing conversions is evident in the Sudan and Kenya.

As far as going to a homosexual fund raiser I do not see any challlenge with this for being a homosexual is but a gift from God.

The act of homosexual sex though is a sin.

The fund raiser as far as I understand was for Aids research and taken care of those stricken with the deases that arise out of the homo sexual population and the lifestyle unfortunately.

The Catholic Church does donate tremendously to those organizations through Catholic Relief Services.

God Bless

 

[mikew262]

First of all, telling someone to “grow up” is hardly conducive to a productive conversation.

Secondly, 1234’s objection was to the use of PB or Mrs., instead of Presiding Bishop Schori. This is hardly comparable to a Protestant referring to the Pope as the Antichrist.

If it is the word “heretic” to which you object, according to the CCC, heresy is defined as…“the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;”. Now, how would you describe someone who advocates the ordination of actively homosexual bishops and clergy, and who claims that there is nothing in scripture which says that homosexuality is a sin? How would you describe someone who refers to Christ as “Mother Jesus”? How would you describe someone who has consistently tried to have orthodox Episcopal bishops and clergy hounded out of the church, and continually sues parishes which are trying to leave what they perceive to be a heretical church? Finally, how would you describe a bishop who questions the bodily resurrection of Christ, saying “I think Easter is most profoundly about meaning, not mechanism.”?

Is this woman truly a fellow Christian?

First off, based on your insult of Bishop Schori, my “Grow up” comment while maybe not productive, was appropriate.

I have not heard the above description of the Bishop, but assuming what you say is true, then yes, there is some legitimate concerns about her theology. Having said that, many non-Catholic Christians have deep concerns about our theology and call us heretics, so where does it stop. However, she still is a follower of Christ, so yes she is s fellow Christian.

 

[mikew262]

No. If she has accepted priesthood and elevation to the Episcopacy against clear teaching of Scripture and Christians tradition, she probably is NOT a Christian.

While you may not agree with some of her thinking, if she is a follower of Christ, then she is Christian.

 

[flameburns623]

While you may not agree with some of her thinking, if she is a follower of Christ, then she is Christian.

If she is not obedient to Christ she is not a follower of Christ.

 

[chris_molter]

The last remnants of true Anglicanism, esp. in its Anglo-Catholic mode, will survive as long as the Continuing Anglican movement does. I have no great expectations as to how long that will be, or when we all will devolve into the ultimate form of unlimited jurisdictions comprising a bishop, 2 little old ladies and a cat.

I suppose, then, the best thing to do is to increase prayers that adequate provision is made within the Catholic Church for its venerable Anglican expression. I know Pope Benedict has a great affection for traditional Anglicans and I hope and pray that he finds a way to provide a permanent solution for those Anglicans (both current and former who are now Latin Rite Catholics like myself) who would be interested in such.

Perhaps you missed the recent press release from the Vatican, which said that Muslims now outnumber Catholics.

Yes, well, that’s if you include EVERY Muslim faction, sect, and division, which isn’t exactly an apple to apple comparison. Maybe if you compared one of the two major divisions in Islam (Sunni or Shiite) it would be, but then it wouldn’t have been a sensational headline.

As far as abortion, divorce, and homosexual lifestyles, Catholics, much to my dismay, are involved in these as well.
The big difference is, the Anglican Church approves of and, on occasion, celebrates these lifestyles.

Yes, but in the Catholic Church, people involved in such things are dissenters and have removed themselves from full communion with the Church (as you mentioned). What, you’re surprised that a Church of a billion people would have sinners in it? (as a side note, divorce isn’t the big problem. There are valid reasons for separation. However, re-marriage after a civil divorce is where we run into problems!)

As for Tony Blair, yes, he is now Catholic, but very recently participated in an abortion rights fundraiser.

When Mr Blair entered the Church, he was required to swear that he submits to all the teachings of the Church. If he was lying or has gone back on that… well… that’s between him and the big guy. And trust me, it’ll be hard enough on ol’ Tony that you and I need not get involved

While you may not agree with some of her thinking, if she is a follower of Christ, then she is Christian.

I think if someone’s (who we personally do not know) Christianity is in question, we ought to err on the side of charity and assume they ARE Christian by virtue of their valid Baptism.

Personally I think she’s a Christian, yes, but with a very warped and heretical view of what Christianity really is and what the Christian life entails.

This is no cause for celebration or triumphalism, but for prayer that she come to see the truth. It’s very sad, especially since she was Baptized Catholic and her mother became Orthodox. So close, and yet, so far.

 

[GKC]

“I suppose, then, the best thing to do is to increase prayers that adequate provision is made within the Catholic Church for its venerable Anglican expression. I know Pope Benedict has a great affection for traditional Anglicans and I hope and pray that he finds a way to provide a permanent solution for those Anglicans (both current and former who are now Latin Rite Catholics like myself) who would be interested in such.”

If the Anglican Use, which is not highly favored in the RCC, and has made little impact (not that it was intended to) were to be come a full-fledged Rite, that would be a good thing. Since Anglican Use parishes are destined eventually to become NO or whatever’s next (the trophy parishes in Texas aside), that small expression of the Anglican tradition will disappear from the RCC. But I have very strong doubts that even Bendict will press for a new Rite. Even so, as Primate of the West (though he doesn’t seem overly fond of the title), we remember Benedict and our own prelates, when we pray at Mass for all Catholic faithful bishops.

GKC

 

[flameburns623]

I suppose, then, the best thing to do is to increase prayers that adequate provision is made within the Catholic Church for its venerable Anglican expression. I know Pope Benedict has a great affection for traditional Anglicans and I hope and pray that he finds a way to provide a permanent solution for those Anglicans (both current and former who are now Latin Rite Catholics like myself) who would be interested in such.

Yes, well, that’s if you include EVERY Muslim faction, sect, and division, which isn’t exactly an apple to apple comparison. Maybe if you compared one of the two major divisions in Islam (Sunni or Shiite) it would be, but then it wouldn’t have been a sensational headline.

Yes, but in the Catholic Church, people involved in such things are dissenters and have removed themselves from full communion with the Church (as you mentioned). What, you’re surprised that a Church of a billion people would have sinners in it? (as a side note, divorce isn’t the big problem. There are valid reasons for separation. However, re-marriage after a civil divorce is where we run into problems!)

When Mr Blair entered the Church, he was required to swear that he submits to all the teachings of the Church. If he was lying or has gone back on that… well… that’s between him and the big guy. And trust me, it’ll be hard enough on ol’ Tony that you and I need not get involved

I think if someone’s (who we personally do not know) Christianity is in question, we ought to err on the side of charity and assume they ARE Christian by virtue of their valid Baptism.

Personally I think she’s a Christian, yes, but with a very warped and heretical view of what Christianity really is and what the Christian life entails.

This is no cause for celebration or triumphalism, but for prayer that she come to see the truth. It’s very sad, especially since she was Baptized Catholic and her mother became Orthodox. So close, and yet, so far.

GKC:

You are blessed on this subject with a more temperate and moderate view than I.

 

[The_Dweller]

Oy, this is what happens when you’ve been posting too long and into the early hours of the morning.

thirdn6,
Of course I agree with the old adage that “there is no truth in numbers”. The first group of Christians was very small indeed. I was approaching this mainly from a political point of view. The demographics show that from the middle of this century to its end,
some European countries are going to become majority Muslim, which may mean the imposition of sharia law. In fact, the Archbishop of Canterbury has just recently said that some sharia law should exist alongside British common law.

c659smith,
I understand that homosexual orientation is not sinful and I greatly admire the group Courage. However, according to the article I mentioned, Tony Blair “thanked the gathered attendees for their help in passing his legislation to permit homosexual civil unions.” He said the passing of the legislation “brought real joy”. The article is dated April 4th, so this event took place after he had been accepted into the Catholic Church.

mike262,
According to the definition of heresy, which I included in my post, Bishop Schori has committed heresy. You may say that this is simply my opinion, but if that is the case, why are entire dioceses trying to leave the The Episcopal Church? In any event, even if what I said about Bishop Schori was an insult, do you truly think it appropriate to respond to an insult with another insult?

chrismolter,
Well, at least your post had a smiley in it. What I was responding to was a previous post which was phrased in such a way as to imply that the Anglican Church had a monopoly on sin, although I’m sure this was not the author’s intention.

I’d like to mention one other thing. Almost all of you who have responded to my posts are Catholic. What would you think if a Pope declared that gay marriage and abortion are just fine? Wouldn’t there at least be a mention of heresy? This is what is happening to Anglicans worldwide. I would ask you to please take this into consideration. Thanks. Cordially, The Dweller.

 

[mercygate]

Chris,

I said I think…well I now know, as reported by virtueonline and Apostasy it was the Bishop of the Diocese of Florida. Covering N. Florida (Tallahassee and Jacksonville). Bishop Howard, not Howe.

Virtue on line has a copy of the documents. Appears that some of the priest left at least 6 months earlier for oversight by other Bishops, such as CANA etc.

Also from these sites, appears the night of the long knives has started as I see 6 active and retired Bishops have been inhibited by the pb. Active are Duncan, Schofield and Iker. Though Schofield and Diocese have already been under the oversight of ArchBishop of the Southern Cone. The retired are from OK, VA and MA.

Mark

Jack Iker has been inhibited??? He was my CLASSMATE and one of the finest men in the Episcopal Church! Link please!!!

 

[chris_molter]

If the Anglican Use, which is not highly favored in the RCC, and has made little impact (not that it was intended to) were to be come a full-fledged Rite, that would be a good thing. Since Anglican Use parishes are destined eventually to become NO or whatever’s next (the trophy parishes in Texas aside), that small expression of the Anglican tradition will disappear from the RCC. But I have very strong doubts that even Bendict will press for a new Rite. Even so, as Primate of the West (though he doesn’t seem overly fond of the title), we remember Benedict and our own prelates, when we pray at Mass for all Catholic faithful bishops.
GKC

I think the idea of an Anglican Rite or Sui Juris Church was a bit… ambitious… considering that the Ecclesia Anglicana has always been part of the Latin/Western Rite (according to Rome, anyway.). I’ve heard the possibility put forth of a Personal Prelature, which would provide some permanence ( apologize for the unintentional alliteration) for the Anglican liturgy within the Latin Rite. I do know the Holy Father is encouraging those legitimate liturgical expressions outside of the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Mass to be used (such as the Ambrosian Rite and possibly even the Dominican Rite).

chrismolter,
Well, at least your post had a smiley in it. What I was responding to was a previous post which was phrased in such a way as to imply that the Anglican Church had a monopoly on sin, although I’m sure this was not the author’s intention.

I’d like to mention one other thing. Almost all of you who have responded to my posts are Catholic. What would you think if a Pope declared that gay marriage and abortion are just fine? Wouldn’t there at least be a mention of heresy? This is what is happening to Anglicans worldwide. I would ask you to please take this into consideration. Thanks. Cordially, The Dweller.

Yes, I find it tough to respond with love to my Catholic brothers and sisters who are, unfortunately, a bit overzealous towards Anglicans. Oftentimes the subtle distinction between run-of-the-mill protestant and your high church minded Anglican is missed by the majority of Catholics.

As to your second question. If a valid Pope attempted to infallibly define that the sacrament of marriage was applicable to two members of the same-sex, or that abortion was not always and everywhere an intrinsic evil, from what I understand he would instantly be unseated by virtue of his teaching of something anathema, freeing the faithful from their allegiance to him and allowing for the election of a new Pope. If a Pope stated in his opinion that same sex marriage is ok, well, he wouldn’t be much of a Pope for the rest of his life since any serious Catholic would cease paying much attention to him, but so long as he didn’t try to promulgate his heresy as Church teaching, he’d remain Pope. (the curia and Bishops would likely make strong efforts to force his resignation, I would think).

 

[GKC]

GKC:

You are blessed on this subject with a more temperate and moderate view than I.

When I first posted on a RC board, 8-9 years ago (my first post, anywhere, in fact), I decided I needed a style. After some experimentation, I settled on “irenic”. After all, if I was going to get upset that RCs had different opinions from Anglicans, what was I doing posting at all.

Besides, I worked for the Federal government for 20 years. It takes a lot to agitate me.

But thanks for the kind remarks.

GKC

 

[mikew262]

If she is not obedient to Christ she is not a follower of Christ.

In your opinion.

Using your logic, since you are not Catholic (I am) and not part of the true Church, then you are technically not being obedient to Christ. Thus you are not a follower of Christ and not a true Christian. Doesn’t make sense now does it?

BTW, I do not feel that way.

 

[1234]

(excerpt)

Now, how would you describe someone who advocates the ordination of actively homosexual bishops and clergy, and who claims that there is nothing in scripture which says that homosexuality is a sin?​

How would you describe someone who has consistently tried to have orthodox Episcopal bishops and clergy hounded out of the church, and continually sues parishes which are trying to leave what they perceive to be a heretical church?

I’m a bystander on these issues but I have read and observed the following:

I think that the ECA’s argument re homosexuality is that many acts were forbidden in the OT which are no longer forbidden; women had to prove rape with witnesses in those days, among other things, thus the OT forbidding of homosexuality does not automatically make it a sin.

Also the ‘hounding’ and ‘sues parishes’ refers to the attempt of those departing to* take the very valuable land and buildings with them-*-both entities belong to the already established Episcopal dioceses and the ECA (Epis Church of America) at large. If this is sustained in court, then any dissident group could walk away with the original groups land and buildings, a very dangerous precedent… just imagine a breakaway group in an RCC church, aligning itself with one of many dissident Catholic groups, suing to leave AND take the building and grounds with it!