Anglican leaders prepare new drive to approve women bishops

[CopticChristian]

The “truth” that you cling to is not the Gospel in my opinion.

Then why are you here?

 

[CopticChristian]

Of course I do.

No, it’s not. We’re all God’s children, no exceptions, and when God calls you to serve, whether you’re gay or straight, man or woman, you answer.

God created all, agree or not?

Did God create people man, woman, gay?

When God calls does He call you to become moral or immoral?

I’ll leave you with this, “I know there are some people who cannot understand why women are allowed to become priests. People who are worried that soon there will be pantyhose drying on the vestry radiator and that ‘hymns’ will have to be called ‘hers’. But you know, they shouldn’t worry; because why they’re worrying about these little things, they’re forgetting to worry about the big things - like how much you help those who need help and how much you love people and show your love to them.”

Leaving is always an option as many did 500 years ago and those that are the progeny of that Exodus should understand that those that did not leave remain unchanged and want nothing of the change.

Here is the big thing and it is called fidelity and truth. That is the big thing.

 

[CopticChristian]

Agree completely. I see this as a teaching moment to prepare some Roman Catholics for what is most definitely facing them. Will they flee to another denomination to be “right” or apply their God-given compassion to their fellow man?

Stop teaching. Your belief that there is a need for education is without merit. What is needed is Catechesis. Many fled 500 years ago and the consequences are seen in time and the results are seen now in those that believe that having been spawned in the beliefs of those that left have something of value to bring when it opposes truth. Compassion is good. Morality is better.

 

[MartinJordan]

Stop teaching. Your belief that there is a need for education is without merit. What is needed is Catechesis. Many fled 500 years ago and the consequences are seen in time and the results are seen now in those that believe that having been spawned in the beliefs of those that left have something of value to bring when it opposes truth. Compassion is good. Morality is better.

MJ

 

[jwinch2]

The “truth” that you cling to is not the Gospel in my opinion.

Christ established a Church on Earth to speak for him in matters of faith and morals, he did not leave it up to individual opinion or interpretation. Your personal opinion on matters of objective truth have no bearing on their veracity.

Women cannot be priests, and women cannot be bishops. This is true. Your liking it, or lack thereof, does not change a thing.

I’m really not sure what you are hoping to accomplish on this forum since you are obviously not hear to dialogue or understand the Catholic Faith at all. If you think you are going to change someone’s mind by telling them that your opinion is different, I think you are wasting your time, but at least please stop trying it on me. You see that link in my signature block that says “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”? I believe everything in there, and you have zero hope of changing that.

 

[Casey123]

copticchristian:

God created all, agree or not?

Agreed.

copticchristian:

Did God create people man, woman, gay?

Yes.

]
When God calls does He call you to become moral or immoral?

He calls us to be moral - now, what do you define as morality? Is it what the Catholic Church defines as morality? Do you make up your own mind, follow your own heart? Whose morality are we using? If you’re implying that a gay man or lesbian woman are immoral by nature, that’s pretty weak tea. God can call any of us, for any reason, at any time.

copticchristian:

Leaving is always an option as many did 500 years ago and those that are the progeny of that Exodus should understand that those that did not leave remain unchanged and want nothing of the change.

Here is the big thing and it is called fidelity and truth. That is the big thing.

I say this with all due respect: Judging by your posts in this and another thread, no offense, but I don’t believe what you define as truth is true.

 

[SteveVH]

Agree completely. I see this as a teaching moment to prepare some Roman Catholics for what is most definitely facing them. Will they flee to another denomination to be “right” or apply their God-given compassion to their fellow man?

A teaching moment, yes, but not for Catholics. The Catholic Church has never rejected gays from becoming members. Just as it does not allow heterosexuals to live in an unchaste manner, it does not allow gays to live in an unchaste manner. It also will not bless homosexual activity under the guise of some misguided compassion any more than it would bless the activity of a heterosexual man engaging in multiple sexual relations because that is just the way God made him. If you want to talk about true compassion for the gays, consider that the Catholic Church treats more AIDS patients than any other organization on earth. That is compassion.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

A teaching moment, yes, but not for Catholics. The Catholic Church has never rejected gays from becoming members. Just as it does not allow heterosexuals to live in an unchaste manner, it does not allow gays to live in an unchaste manner. It also will not bless homosexual activity under the guise of some misguided compassion any more than it would bless the activity of a heterosexual man engaging in multiple sexual relations because that is just the way God made him. If you want to talk about true compassion for the gays, consider that the Catholic Church treats more AIDS patients than any other organization on earth. That is compassion.

No question that the Roman Catholic Church provides charitable services beyond any other religious group, I think.

Absolutes, however can be confining in a world seeking God not condemnation.

 

[Casey123]

Christ established a Church on Earth to speak for him in matters of faith and morals, he did not leave it up to individual opinion or interpretation. Your personal opinion on matters of objective truth have no bearing on their veracity.

I believe he did. However, he left men in charge of it. There have been good Popes and bad Popes. Even if the chain of successors of Peter is unbroken within the Catholic Church, it does not mean that the all of the men that followed Peter are worthy of following without question.

copticchristian:

Women cannot be priests, and women cannot be bishops. This is true. Your liking it, or lack thereof, does not change a thing.

Well, all due respect, women are priests and bishops in many churches, just not in yours. This is true. Your liking it, or lack thereof, does not change a thing.

 

[CopticChristian]

Agreed.

Yes.

He calls us to be moral - now, what do you define as morality? Is it what the Catholic Church defines as morality? Do you make up your own mind, follow your own heart? Whose morality are we using? If you’re implying that a gay man or lesbian woman are immoral by nature, that’s pretty weak tea. God can call any of us, for any reason, at any time.

I say this with all due respect: Judging by your posts in this and another thread, no offense, but I don’t believe what you define as truth is true.

How in the world did you come to believe that God created man, woman and gay…there is not now or ever been proof that anyone is born gay…

You have swallowed the Essentialism=born that way pill…a fallacy, a fantasy that may be clouding all your beliefs…rethink this…

He calls us to be moral - now, what do you define as morality? Is it what the Catholic Church defines as morality? Do you make up your own mind, follow your own heart? Whose morality are we using? If you’re implying that a gay man or lesbian woman are immoral by nature, that’s pretty weak tea. God can call any of us, for any reason, at any time.

Study the Catechism concerning the 6th commandment and get back to me…

I say this with all due respect: Judging by your posts in this and another thread, no offense, but I don’t believe what you define as truth is true.

Thank you. A very simple question.

Do you believe that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages, the Pillar and foundation of truth, through which the manifold wisdom of God is known?

Do you believe that the revealed truths in the Catechism as taught by the OHCAC is truth or kind of true?

 

[CopticChristian]

No question that the Roman Catholic Church provides charitable services beyond any other religious group, I think.

Absolutes, however can be confining in a world seeking God not condemnation.

Is murder absolutely wrong?

Is abortion absolutely wrong?

Is Sodomy, men/men, absolutely immoral?

Are Men/men, women/women homosexual sexual relations absolutely immoral?

 

[jwinch2]

Well, all due respect, women are priests and bishops in many churches, just not in yours. This is true. Your liking it, or lack thereof, does not change a thing.

They may think they do, but they don’t. What they have is women dressing up and pretending to be priests and bishops. Outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches there is no valid priesthood and no valid episcopate. Even if there was a valid Apostolic succession outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which there isn’t, a woman can no more be ordained as a priest or bishop than a slice of pizza can be consecrated into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Casey123]

How in the world did you come to believe that God created man, woman and gay…there is not now or ever been proof that anyone is born gay…

Well, I speak from personal experience, unless you’d like to call me a liar. I hate to tell you that you’re wrong about your first point, but there is a wide well of evidence to draw from that indicates homosexuality and heterosexuality as we understand them are, in fact, inborn traits.

wptv.com/dpp/news/local_news/water_cooler/gay-gene-scientists-believe-they-discovered-the-source-of-homosexuality-through-epigenetics

independent.co.uk/news/research-confirms-gay-gene-discovery-1580244.html

foxnews.com/health/2012/12/11/homosexuality-ultimately-result-gene-regulation-researchers-find/

CopticChristian:

You have swallowed the Essentialism=born that way pill…a fallacy, a fantasy that may be clouding all your beliefs…rethink this…

I know it to be true. I’ve lived this. As I said, unless you’d like to call me a liar… I can only tell you of my own experience throughout my life. I was, in fact, born this way, am this way, and will remain this way. I don’t know how to put it more plainly.

CopticChristian:

Study the Catechism concerning the 6th commandment and get back to me…

Why are you asking me to study the teachings of a religion I don’t believe to be true to prove your point to me? If I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church are flawed and don’t believe it to be the one true church, might I ask why you think that studying the Catholic Church’s texts will change my mind? It’s like Vader saying to Skywalker, “Come to the Dark Side, I know you don’t believe in it, but here is Palpatine’s definitive text on the matter, that’ll surely convince you, son.”

I believe you can actually find that exchange in the deleted scenes of Return of the Jedi.

CopticChristian:

Thank you. A very simple question.

You’re welcome!

CopticChristian:

Do you believe that the Church is the mystery hidden for all ages, the Pillar and foundation of truth, through which the manifold wisdom of God is known?

If you’re referring to the Roman Catholic Church, then no.

copticchristian:

Do you believe that the revealed truths in the Catechism as taught by the OHCAC is truth or kind of true?

You’re asking me whether or not I believe a truth to be true; truth, of course, being your definition of what is true and what isn’t, based upon one interpretation of the Gospel out of countless others.

To answer your question simply: No. Emphatically not. I mean no disrespect by saying so. I’m only answering your question honestly, friend.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, I speak from personal experience, unless you’d like to call me a liar. I hate to tell you that you’re wrong about your first point, but there is a wide well of evidence to draw from that indicates homosexuality and heterosexuality as we understand them are, in fact, inborn traits.

wptv.com/dpp/news/local_news/water_cooler/gay-gene-scientists-believe-they-discovered-the-source-of-homosexuality-through-epigenetics

independent.co.uk/news/research-confirms-gay-gene-discovery-1580244.html

foxnews.com/health/2012/12/11/homosexuality-ultimately-result-gene-regulation-researchers-find/

I know it to be true. I’ve lived this. As I said, unless you’d like to call me a liar… I can only tell you of my own experience throughout my life. I was, in fact, born this way, am this way, and will remain this way. I don’t know how to put it more plainly.

Why are you asking me to study the teachings of a religion I don’t believe to be true to prove your point to me? If I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church are flawed and don’t believe it to be the one true church, might I ask why you think that studying the Catholic Church’s texts will change my mind? It’s like Vader saying to Skywalker, “Come to the Dark Side, I know you don’t believe in it, but here is Palpatine’s definitive text on the matter, that’ll surely convince you, son.”

I believe you can actually find that exchange in the deleted scenes of Return of the Jedi.

You’re welcome!

If you’re referring to the Roman Catholic Church, then no.

You’re asking me whether or not I believe a truth to be true; truth, of course, being your definition of what is true and what isn’t, based upon one interpretation of the Gospel out of countless others.

To answer your question simply: No. Emphatically not. I mean no disrespect by saying so. I’m only answering your question honestly, friend.

I speak from personal experience, unless you’d like to call me a liar. I hate to tell you that you’re wrong about your first point, but there is a wide well of evidence to draw from that indicates homosexuality and heterosexuality as we understand them are, in fact, inborn traits.

wptv.com/dpp/news/local_news/water_cooler/gay-gene-scientists-believe-they-discovered-the-source-of-homosexuality-through-epigenetics

independent.co.uk/news/research-confirms-gay-gene-discovery-1580244.html

foxnews.com/health/2012/12/11/homosexuality-ultimately-result-gene-regulation-researchers-find/

I have news for you. As a physician, well educated, well informed and knowledgeable in genetics and epigenetics…there is no proof. I do not use news reports as evidence and that may be your difficulty. The media and the poppycock propanda that many have been led to believe is not true. You swallowed the lie that there is proof. There is no proof. If you can find it let me know and I will direct you to the nearest Nobel Prize office for your acknowledgment in science.

It is not now or ever been proven to be true, Essentialism=born that way=lie, fallacy, not true…

Ok…

and if your beliefs come from the news as this has then I understand your lack of understanding in all that follows.

 

[Casey123]

They may think they do, but they don’t. What they have is women dressing up and pretending to be priests and bishops. Outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches there is no valid priesthood and no valid episcopate. Even if there was a valid Apostolic succession outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which there isn’t, a woman can no more be ordained as a priest or bishop than a slice of pizza can be consecrated into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Mmm! I love it when they use the pizza analogy, though it makes me hungry.

The fact is that there are - and this might be a shock - other churches that do not follow your particular Church’s teaching on whether or not having been born with a female reproductive system is an automatic disqualifier to serving as clergy. You may believe that these other churches have no valid priesthood or valid episcopate, but that’s simply your belief and your Church’s belief. To me, a Protestant, that claim is nothing more than religious jingoism.

Women are priests, bishops, deacons, and called to all levels of ministry in other churches. This has been a point of contention in dialogue between, for example, the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics are apt to say, “If you ordain women bishops, say goodbye to any hope of Communion with us!” I’m quite eager to see the day when the Anglicans respond with, “If you don’t start ordaining women, you can say goodbye to any hope of Communion with us.”

It would be lovely for all Christians to march under the same banner, in the same church. Alas, I don’t ever forsee that day happening. There will always be those who refuse to swear any allegiance, spiritual or otherwise, to Rome. Count me as one of them. I don’t believe it truly matters if we’re ever in Communion with the Catholics. You guys do your thing, we’ll do our thing, and let’s adopt the “bar talk” agreement where we leave politics and religion out of our discussions with one another. We’ll be happy and get along nicely.

 

[CopticChristian]

Mmm! I love it when they use the pizza analogy, though it makes me hungry.

The fact is that there are - and this might be a shock - other churches that do not follow your particular Church’s teaching on whether or not having been born with a female reproductive system is an automatic disqualifier to serving as clergy. You may believe that these other churches have no valid priesthood or valid episcopate, but that’s simply your belief and your Church’s belief. To me, a Protestant, that claim is nothing more than religious jingoism.

Women are priests, bishops, deacons, and called to all levels of ministry in other churches. This has been a point of contention in dialogue between, for example, the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics are apt to say, “If you ordain women bishops, say goodbye to any hope of Communion with us!” I’m quite eager to see the day when the Anglicans respond with, “If you don’t start ordaining women, you can say goodbye to any hope of Communion with us.”

It would be lovely for all Christians to march under the same banner, in the same church. Alas, I don’t ever forsee that day happening. There will always be those who refuse to swear any allegiance, spiritual or otherwise, to Rome. Count me as one of them. I don’t believe it truly matters if we’re ever in Communion with the Catholics. You guys do your thing, we’ll do our thing, and let’s adopt the “bar talk” agreement where we leave politics and religion out of our discussions with one another. We’ll be happy and get along nicely.

Prepare for your future…you can read about it here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766675

**Wrongly Dividing the Body of Christ **

If it isn’t Homosexuality, it will be Women Priests and ministers, or Same Sex marriage…anything to conform to the world…even though Paul says…

do not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind…you will be missed…

 

[Casey123]

I have news for you. As a physician, well educated, well informed and knowledgeable in genetics and epigenetics…there is no proof. I do not use news reports as evidence and that may be your difficulty. The media and the poppycock propanda that many have been led to believe is not true. You swallowed the lie that there is proof. There is no proof. If you can find it let me know and I will direct you to the nearest Nobel Prize office for your acknowledgment in science.

Right, so because other scientists have come to a conclusion you disagree with, that means that it’s “propaganda”. Right. Can I hazard a guess and wager that your scientific conclusion that these reports are “poppycock” also happen to neatly fall in line with your church’s teachings and your own personal beliefs too, right?

I stand by the evidence offered, I also stand by my own knowledge and experience on what it’s like to grow up as a gay individual.

]
It is not now or ever been proven to be true, Essentialism=born that way=lie, fallacy, not true…

So, it isn’t true because you say it isn’t true, and the evidence isn’t proper evidence because you say it isn’t proper evidence… You’re literally falling on to the “Trust me, I’m a Doctor” line, with no evidence of any kind, other than the fact that you ‘say so’. That only works on primetime medical dramas and as a final resort pickup line at last call.

CopticChristian:

And if your beliefs come from the news as this has then I understand your lack of understanding in all that follows.

I’m still trying to figure out where your beliefs come from, so I wish I could say the same to you.

 

[CopticChristian]

.

Right, so because other scientists have come to a conclusion you disagree with, that means that it’s “propaganda”. Right. Can I hazard a guess and wager that your scientific conclusion that these reports are “poppycock” also happens to neatly fall in line with your church’s teachings and your own personal beliefs too, right?

I stand by the evidence offered, I also stand by my own knowledge and experience on what it’s like to grow up as a gay individual.

Whatever science you believe you have found will say things like…

It appears to be
We believe that this shows
This study suggests
etc, etc,

I have read too many articles and offered too many opionions to counter “as if” arguments that are not fact. There is no factual evidence to provide any proof of what you say. Provide me any link and I will demonstrate for you that it is not fact, rather conjecture. You just choose not to see it.

Whatever you call yourself, you are saying based on my experience and that is nothing more than empiricism. There is always contention with empiricism and rationalism and you need both to come to any conclusion.

So, it isn’t true because you say it isn’t true, and the evidence isn’t proper evidence because you say it isn’t proper evidence… You’re literally falling on to the “Trust me, I’m a Doctor” line, with no evidence of any kind, other than the fact that you ‘say so’. That only works on primetime medical dramas and as a final resort pickup line at last call.

It isn’t true because it isn’t true. Show me anything that says I am wrong. I have read lots and I read lots and if you believe you have something to teach, then put it out there for everyone to read…and I will retract…

Essentialism=born that way=a lie, a fallacy, not true now or ever been true and not proven…

I have no duty to you to prove that what you say is not true, if you believe it is true, then provide the evidence or accept the reality that you swallowed a lie.

I’m still trying to figure out where your beliefs come from, so I wish I could say the same to you

My beliefs come from the OHCAC, the USA Catechism for Adults USA, audio and hardback that is based on the Universal Catechism…you should listen to it…

Ask a direct question about my beliefs and I will provide you a direct answer

 

[EvangelCatholic]

They may think they do, but they don’t. What they have is women dressing up and pretending to be priests and bishops. Outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches there is no valid priesthood and no valid episcopate. Even if there was a valid Apostolic succession outside of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which there isn’t, a woman can no more be ordained as a priest or bishop than a slice of pizza can be consecrated into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I think you set back ecumenical progress a 1000 years and don’t reflect actual Roman Catholic practice. Just the other day Pope Francis suggested that good atheists go to heaven.

 

[MartinJordan]

Just the other day Pope Francis suggested that good atheists go to heaven.

LOL! He was talking about meeting “there” in a common ground way. Nothing to do about Heaven.

MJ